Translation of 3.2 Notes by BG

[SpookyGhost]

I don't really have the energy to go through this so I'll just personally concede.

However, I'd like to note that there's nothing wrong with having a worry - do you want balance? Because it seems like you do. So naturally, you want them to neither over-buff PLD/DRK nor under-buff them. You want everyone to be on a nice even playing field and allow for all tanks to be able to work together. So if something seems like it may affect the balance or create a disparity between any of the 3, you naturally worry, as that would cause imbalance.

[Syzygian]

I don't really have the energy to go through this so I'll just personally concede.

However, I'd like to note that there's nothing wrong with having a worry - do you want balance? Because it seems like you do. So naturally, you want them to neither over-buff PLD/DRK nor under-buff them. You want everyone to be on a nice even playing field and allow for all tanks to be able to work together. So if something seems like it may affect the balance or create a disparity between any of the 3, you naturally worry, as that would cause imbalance.

Here's the thing... and I'm gonna be brutally honest with my outlook here while trying to step on as few toes as possible...

WAR has been nearly guaranteed a raid slot for the past 2 patches (not counting pre-3.0 since there were only 2 tanks). DRK/PLD comps that do well enough to be notable are nearly unheard of.

Given that fact alone, I don't think WAR needs buffs. At all. Look at some of the things WAR has been able to pull off- does anyone really think that they'll be dethroned by a kink in Defiance (which so many WARs infrequently use anyway)?

If DRK and PLD are buffed to the point where someone has to think longer than a few seconds about whether or not to bring one of them over a WAR, I think that's good. I can't help it, I don't like the smugness that (some) WARs have about their guaranteed spot in raids and fancying themselves as the glue around which a group is built and the unequivocal best job in the game, and the other tanks being 2nd- and/or 3rd-class citizens. It feels toxic to me. As long as WAR is still in 2 out of 3 raid compositions nothing of value was lost, but in that remaining 1 out of the 3 we'll be able to see what the new DRK and new PLD can do in a group together.

This is what people wanted - don't nerf WAR, buff DRK/PLD. If they buff them to the point where WAR is not a fixture in every raid group, so long as WAR is not UNDERpowered (and lol @ the minor Defiance discrepancy making/breaking that distinction) I don't see the problem. Every tank will have to try out and earn their raid slot equally. If some WARs are bitter about that I honestly cannot relate.

WAR is so far ahead of DRK in OT design, and ahead of PLD in MT/OT design and DPS, that both jobs have a *considerable* gap to close before a WAR main would need to worry, and I don't think anyone could be justifiably convinced at the present moment that the incoming buffs are going to fully close that gap, let alone overshoot it.

[SpookyGhost]

Given that fact alone, I don't think WAR needs buffs.

I think you might be misunderstanding something here, I'm not 100% sure based on this post. PLD isn't just getting one buff, they're getting several. DRK, already, is very very close to WAR on top of having it's own niche in magic damage reduction, and is apparently seeing upward adjustments as well. They could easily go too far - and that would be fine, if WAR is also adjusted to compensate. They could definitely reach a balance without any overshooting from where WAR currently stands, and from the sounds of it (with them saying that only PLD and DRK are getting adjustments) they have. But, basically, they could easily overbuff PLD/DRK and, if that were to happen, we'd need to bring WAR up. We want an even playing field. Hopefully that means no WAR buffs as I think WAR is fine as it is and that the other 2 should be exactly where WAR is now, but if they do go over then it's fine - as long as we end up leveled by the end. Yeah? Yeah.

e: I think you think there's a bigger disparity between WAR and PLD, and WAR and DRK especially, than there actually is. They could give PLD/DRK Eye and that would immediately solve a lot of issues and allow them to work together. It's not as complicated as it seems and they could super duper easily overshoot it. I hope they don't, but y'know, could happen. Regardless, though, they'll do what they do and there's nothing we can change about that until after the patch comes out and we're free to complain to our hearts content. Or praise. Hopefully praise.

[Launched]

WAR has been nearly guaranteed a raid slot for the past 2 patches (not counting pre-3.0 since there were only 2 tanks). DRK/PLD comps that do well enough to be notable are nearly unheard of.

Quit blaming WAR for everything wrong with tanks. Pre-3.0, WAR+PLD was the best choice because they played differently, offered different options and worked well together. Then 3.0 came along with DRK, which is in my opinion the worst designed job in the game. It's way too similar to PLD: they play similarly (DRK just has a few more off-GCDs), they have similar mitigation abilities, they have similar utility. There's no reason to take both because they overlap a lot, you should just take the one that has the advantage in current content (no matter how small that is). DRK should have been like AST, having a skillset able to replace either PLD or WAR (or even have its own entirely unique skillset), but instead we got a PLD clone and that's where I think the majority of the problems come from. DRK should have got a rework instead of just buffing it and PLD, because there's not much buffing can do to make a PLD/DRK party good.

[MagiusNecros]

I definitely agree with the Paladin clone bit. DRK just feels like the magic mitigation version in the end. Should have called it Mystic Knight or some crap.

[Syzygian]

A practically Jurassic tirade dug up from the fossil record of 3.0's launch about PLD/DRK being clones of eachother

I didn't cast blame on anybody for anything, certainly not in what you quoted (which was simply me stating a pair of facts), and Shadowskin being a clone of Rampart doesn't make DRK a clone of PLD. If no amount of buffs will make a PLD/DRK party good then why were you QQing about Defiance?

I could write an essay about how they are meaningfully different in DPS, utility, playstyle, rotation, mechanics, and their own MT vs. OT playstyle. But I don't think anyone wants that.

e: I think you think there's a bigger disparity between WAR and PLD, and WAR and DRK especially, than there actually is. They could give PLD/DRK Eye and that would immediately solve a lot of issues and allow them to work together. It's not as complicated as it seems and they could super duper easily overshoot it. I hope they don't, but y'know, could happen. Regardless, though, they'll do what they do and there's nothing we can change about that until after the patch comes out and we're free to complain to our hearts content. Or praise. Hopefully praise.

I certainly am not complaining about the patch, I apologize if I sounded as though I was. But when I saw a WAR complaining? Come now. Like I said, this is what people wanted. I frankly don't think anyone should be complaining, at least not before the patch notes.

That being said, I don't think DRK and WAR are far off in terms of DPS but the gap is huge elsewhere IMO. I can't speak for PLD's discrepancies because while I have it at 60 I rarely play it because I just do not find it satisfying for reasons I share with a lot of folks and a few that are probably more personal.

If they gave DRK Eye it would not solve:

1. The fact that making a DRK OT instead of MT is like throwing a brick through a stained glass window.

2. The fact that DRK has no way of slowing TP consumption in its tank stance, or independently of stance.

3. The fact that its tank stance is a plague upon humanity and there is no mechanical incentive to use it outside of DASE heals which are taken into account by healers probably no more than Parry is.

4. Its slight lack of physical mitigation. If they even so much as tacked on a Shadeshift effect to DD this could be fixed.

5. Piggy-backing off #1 and #3, and a bit off what you said as well, DRK can deal WAR numbers, but has to make some pretty large demands on itself and the party to do so. You CAN'T hit the job's DPS ceiling while OTing which is just silly. You have to be tanking and you have to be doing it out of tank stance. Not saying that that is not intensely satisfying and fun to do, because it is, but it still puts some big demands on yourself and your healers. And its frustrating too. Think about it. While OTing, you're doing suboptimal DPS for your job, no matter what. Its silly.

6. Has zero unique, party-based raid utility as an OT to make up for the loss of Reprisal, which by design does not make sense in the OT role.

I'd like to point out that everything I just said in that list has literally nothing to do with WAR and everything to do with buffs to DRK/PLD. I'm simply pointing out that the gap is still pretty wide in some areas and quite a few changes could be made without throwing WAR off of the see-saw.

If SE gives it all these things, it would put it on par with WAR, IMO. And WAR would still edge it out because of its self-heals and the fact that it can gobble up huge amounts of incoming damage with those heals without even touching any of its 4 core defensive CDs (IB, ToB, Vengeance, RI).

[Violette]

3. The fact that its tank stance is a plague upon humanity and there is no incentive to use it outside of DASE heals which are taken into account by healers probably no more than Parry is.

A3S.
A4S.
A2S.
Generally times when you gotta take damage.

[Syzygian]

A3S.
A4S.
A2S.
Generally times when you gotta take damage.

This applies to all tank stances, and wasn't the point of what I said.

What I meant is that there is nothing special gained by Grit, but out of Grit, you get literally everything and more (if you're tanking). There is nothing locked behind Grit. While satisfying, its a punishing design. As a DRK, you get candy from doing two things: 1. getting hit and 2. being out of Grit. There is nothing to alleviate the loss of having to turn Grit on or anything meaningful that you get access to by doing so.

Sure, it doesn't matter now, we're at the end of a progression cycle/raid tier. But a new one is about to start and once again Xeno's words will ring true: "Every second your DRK spends in Grit, you're putting the clear at risk."

PLD has this same problem, but, the difference is there is nothing special unlocked by SwO either, mechanically anyway. In all ways the two stances play identically, you're just passively dealing/taking more/less damage.

[Violette]

This applies to all tank stances, and wasn't the point of what I said.

What I meant is that there is nothing special gained by Grit, but out of Grit, you get literally everything and more (if you're tanking). There is nothing locked behind Grit. While satisfying, its a punishing design. As a DRK, you get candy from doing two things: 1. getting hit and 2. being out of Grit. There is nothing to alleviate the loss of having to turn Grit on or anything meaningful that you get access to by doing so.

PLD has this same problem, but, the difference is there is nothing special unlocked by SwO either, mechanically anyway. In all ways the two stances play identically, you're just passively dealing/taking more/less damage.

So?
Why does it have to?

Game's not like WoW where every tank.....hold on.

-Googles-

Oh yeah, even in WoW only one stance (Brewmasters) empowers their abilities. The rest are just straight up defensive buffs, some don't even buff enmity.

AND THIS IS 100%, TOTALLY FINE.

(I.E. adding complication for the sake of complication is in fact, complicating. Some people like that it's simple. Turn on take less damage woo woo quit with thy bitching).