Is FFXIV viable as an MMORPG without doing end-game & raiding?

[Alahra]

I would say that all of the extra content is used to get you ready for raiding.

That's true, of course—that's essentially the structure the developers have in place. But that doesn't mean people can't find enjoyment in the game without following the structure to its natural endpoint.

The question wasn't about how the game is structured but more about whether there is enough content if you don't raid, and given the majority of players that don't, I'd say the answer is essentially yes to that specific question. Plenty of players are happy to complete their max-level gearsets using only Tomestone gear and never touch raiding, and greater numbers of players still never complete a max-level gearset at all, and they continue to pay for and play the game.

Edit just to expand a little: That being said, I think the presence of raiding content is necessary even for players who don't ever engage with it. It's the ultimate "carrot," and I would imagine that even for many players who don't raid, the thought that they might someday is part of what keeps them working on their gear and such.

But in terms of whether or not a player needs to raid to have enough content, they definitely don't. You didn't even need to in WoW (at least until the last couple expansion), and that game was rather raid-heavy compared to FFXIV.

Edit again since I'm at the post cap:

All of that said, if you don't like raiding, Guild Wars 2 is a far better game.

But that's entirely subjective. I'm not really traditionally a raider (I do raid casually in FFXIV but it's the first game where I've done so and when I'm not raiding I still get plenty of enjoyment out of the game), but I can't stand GW2. I don't like the art style, the character animations, the combat, the ability system—hell, I don't even like the game's movement.

Edit response again:

Finally, in terms of subjectivity - yes, it is. However, it's also more agreed upon. MMORPG.com has Guild Wars 2 be the #1 game fairly consistently
Guild Wars 2 hits for the year = 1.6 million
FFXIV = 0.9 million

Gamerankings.com average review scores:
Guild Wars 2 average reviews = 90.02%
FFXIV = 86.08%
that said, Heavensward beats out Heart of the Thorns (never played GW2 expansion)

Well, yeah. That's to be expected since GW2 is free, and its aesthetics are also more...western? FFXIV is still a JRPG at its core and that naturally lowers its appeal to broader audiences. That doesn't mean FFXIV isn't viable: it just means it's not the best.

(However, as an aside, if you go to the Game List on mmorpg.com and sort by Rating/Hype, you'll see that FFXIV is at 8.52, only .05 below GW2's 8.57. I'd say that's overall pretty close for a JRPG that's also subscription-based).

I was only responding to the question in the OP, which was whether or not this game has enough content if you don't raid, and ultimately I think it does for enough players to consider the game "viable," (that is, not a failure).

Regarding most of the other things you asked about, my distaste for GW2 kept me from playing enough to even know much about any of its systems. The core gameplay was a failure to me from the get-go, so I never got into the nitty gritty. What I can talk about, generally, though, are these:

I don't think the combat in either one is better necessarily. You keep using that word but it ultimately comes down to preference, which is again subjective. I don't like faster combat and I don't like action-based combat, so GW2 naturally isn't going to be "better" for me. I do wish FFXIV had more customization options, as you know, but I also wouldn't really consider that part of the game's combat, as customization isn't going to generally change how the combat gameplay goes—it just changes which buttons you press in what order, if even that.

When it comes to inventory—yeah, FFXIV has some major issues, I won't deny that. But I guess I'm also used to those issues because FFXI's inventory issues were worse by an order of magnitude up until recently. I've not made a secret of the fact that I currently pay for five extra retainers, and yeah, I'd prefer not to have to, and if we ever get a glamour catalogue or something, I'll probably scale back down to just two extra or something. But again, the game's still viable.

Jumping puzzles? Please keep those as far away from me as possible. If I wanted jumping puzzles, I'd go play a platformer (and I do sometimes). When I'm playing an RPG, I don't want a great deal of "action" elements.

I've been a vocal critic of the FFXIV zone design since 2.0, and I wish the zones were more expansive. I'm still sad we got more expansive zones in HW and they promptly made that expansiveness meaningless with the addition of flight. It still doesn't mean the game's not viable if you don't do endgame.

The map design is ultimately an aesthetic, subjective thing, again. I like the "old-style yellow maps."

I've also been vocally critical of the Hunt zerg. But that still, again, doesn't mean FFXIV isn't viable. I know people that frickin' love hunts for some reason. I don't understand them. But they exist.

As far as the leveling experience goes, eh. I enjoyed it. But I also didn't grind FATEs. I did the content I liked: dungeons.

[Kaurie]

Of course, in one sense, that's true—that's essentially the structure the developers have in place. But that doesn't mean people can't find enjoyment in the game without following the structure to its natural endpoint.

The question wasn't about how the game is structured but more about whether there is enough content if you don't raid, and given the majority of players that don't, I'd say the answer is essentially yes to that specific question. Plenty of players are happy to complete their max-level gearsets using only Tomestone gear and never touch raiding, and greater numbers of players still never complete a max-level gearset at all, and they continue to pay for and play the game.

Indeed, i guess I am struggling with the question from the OP. Is it a viable game? Yes, even Tetris is a 'viable' game. However, is it one of the better MMO's without raiding? I'd say no. FFXIV reaches the best balance of everything, but ultimately fails in a lot of ways compared to other MMO's on the market. The thing is, FFXIV's core is the best, whereas in the other games the negatives are often deal breakers (for me). If FFXIV didn't have raiding, I'd probably place FFXIV 5th or so on my list of MMO's to play -> 1. WoW, 2. Guild Wars 2, 3. Wildstar, 4. Blade and Soul, 5. FFXIV - whereas currently, FFXIV sits in #1 for me. This is likely to change with Legion, as I have high hopes for it and with every patch the dev team shoves me further away in FFXIV (though, time will tell).

All of that said, if you don't like raiding, Guild Wars 2 is a far better game. I listed this already, but have expanded my list and wanted to bring it back as I feel it is important to answering the question. Is FFXIV viable without raiding? On it's own yes. In the context of other MMO's on the market? No, GW2 is significantly better and has no sub fee.

GW2 has better:
leveling experience
combat
pvp
gathering
crafting
market
open world events
open world bosses
cash shop
non-combat content (jumping puzzles)
seasonal events
job balance
glamour system
wardrobe system
wallet
inventory
armor skins
daily activities
maps
zones

FFXIV has better:
Instanced PvE content
Trinity - wins
Story

But that's entirely subjective. I'm not really traditionally a raider (I do raid casually in FFXIV but it's the first game where I've done so and when I'm not raiding I still get plenty of enjoyment out of the game), but I can't stand GW2. I don't like the art style, the character animations, the combat, the ability system, or the PvP—hell, I don't even like the game's movement.

Entirely fair. It is subjective.

I have a hard time seeing how one could say the combat is better in FFXIV though. GW2 is faster, allows you to customize more, and is more action based.
I don't like the PvP either, but I don't like PvP in any game (even CoD), so my opinion on that is based more on consensus that I've seen via discussions.
Character animations are definitely nicer in FFXIV, you are right there - walking in GW2 feels funny.

However, how do you feel about say;
Super Adventure Box vs Little Ladies Day
Jumping Puzzles vs Sightseeing Log
Depositing gathered materials in to a crafting bank from anywhere vs running out of inventory constantly
Having a crafting bank vs paying for multiple retainers
Dynamic events vs FATEs
Having a saved wardrobe vs buying glamour prisms and hogging inventory space
Zones that are expansive and allow you to go everywhere vs narrow zones and invisible walls galore
Maps that are colourful and clear vs yellow old-style maps
A cash shop you can use in-game gold to buy nice glamours vs a cash shop that requires real money and won't allow refunds for mistaken purchases
Open world bosses that are epic and require coordination vs Hunts that die in 12 seconds
A leveling experience that lets you experience multiple paths of a story vs a leveling experience of grinding FATEs

I just have a very hard time seeing how one could say FFXIV is better in any of the ways above. However, the ones below I can see how one could argue FFXIV is better - they just really aren't for me.
Crafting
Gathering
Daily Activities

Finally, in terms of subjectivity - yes, it is. However, it's also more agreed upon. MMORPG.com has Guild Wars 2 be the #1 game fairly consistently
Guild Wars 2 hits for the year = 1.6 million
FFXIV = 0.9 million

Gamerankings.com average review scores:
Guild Wars 2 average reviews = 90.02%
FFXIV = 86.08%
that said, Heavensward beats out Heart of the Thorns (never played GW2 expansion)

[Kaurie]

I don't think the combat in either one is better necessarily. You keep using that word but it ultimately comes down to preference, which is again subjective. I don't like faster combat and I don't like action-based combat, so GW2 naturally isn't going to be "better" for me.

Sorry, I feel it is implied when i say something is better in a subjective context that I mean it's my opinion. To clarify, that is all I am saying, in my opinion Guild Wars 2 is better in most ways.

(However, as an aside, if you go to the Game List ont hat site and sort by Rating/Hype, you'll see that FFXIV is at 8.52, only .05 below GW2's 8.57. I'd say that's overall pretty close for a JRPG that's also subscription-based).

Oh, I completely agree - I play FFXIV as I prefer it to Guild Wars 2 overall. I am not here to say that FFXIV is bad, I am just saying if it did not have raids (it's greatest appeal to me) there would be other games that are far better. However, it does have raids (and trinity) so it's imo better.

Jumping puzzles? Please keep those as far away from me as possible. If I wanted jumping puzzles, I'd go play a platformer (and I do sometimes). When I'm playing an RPG, I don't want a great deal of "action" elements.

While my focus in an MMO is more on raids etc, many MMOs work in side content. I've never seen anything quite as fun as side content as Jumping Puzzles. These got particularly fun at higher levels. I liked that you could use your skills as well (such as swiftness to make the jump, or portal to work in a team). Jumping puzzles were hella fun. By contrast, sightseeing log, lov, triple triad, choco racing etc are incredibly lame.

I've been a vocal critic of the FFXIV zone design since 2.0, and I wish the zones were more expansive. I'm still sad we got more expansive zones in HW and they promptly made that expansiveness meaningless with the addition of flight. It still doesn't mean the game's not viable if you don't do endgame.

I thought I made my point clear on this, but perhaps not. I am not saying all of this makes the game not viable, and that any game is 'viable'. However, it's not the best, and there are better options for cheaper if you don't want to raid. Like, let me think of an analogy that will ultimately be torn down by someone who fails to capture what I am attempting to convey, let's say you go buy a bucket of vegetables from a local farmer. There are two buckets in front of you, one bucket has tomatoes in it, which you despise with a passion, as well as things you like such as turnips, squash, lettuce. This bucket is $40, whereas there is a bucket right beside it, which has just turnips, squash, lettuce and is $10. Upon further reflection, you notice in the bucket for $40, the squash and turnips are looking rather moldy. If you don't like tomatos, the logical conclusion is to take the cheaper bucket. It's the more viable option;however, you can still buy the $40 bucket as it is a viable purchase. It just makes less sense of why you'd do that. That is how I perceive the GW2 vs FFXIV argument in regards to raiding/not raiding (raiding being tomatoes).

The map design is ultimately an aesthetic, subjective thing, again. I like the "old-style yellow maps."

Oh. I didn't realize that this could be so subjective. IMO the yellow maps were the most jarring thing for me when i first started playing. I find navigating maps to be very cumbersome (moving between zones in GW2 involves scrolling your mouse wheel, whereas in FFXIV you need to use a bunch of pulldown menus), and I find the yellow maps don't convey the imagery of the zone very well. Like in GW2 I know where mountains, water etc are from the map. I only know in FFXIV from experience.

I've also been vocally critical of the Hunt zerg. But that still, again, doesn't mean FFXIV isn't viable. I know people that frickin' love hunts for some reason. I don't understand them. But they exist.

Again same thing, it depends what you consider viable. It's just that there are better options for cheaper, which I feel makes something less viable.

As far as the leveling experience goes, eh. I enjoyed it. But I also didn't grind FATEs. I did the content I liked: dungeons.

I liked my first leveling experience, but with each job it gets worse and worse; whereas with GW2 it was still fun to level my 8th class up. Again this is subjective.


At the end of the day. The OP asked if they think it's viable, and I feel it's not due to the above. You're welcome to disagree, that's what the discussion is for

[Alahra]

Looks like I got another post. I wish they'd at least give us a countdown somewhere so we'd know when the damn thing refreshed.

At the end of the day. The OP asked if they think it's viable, and I feel it's not due to the above. You're welcome to disagree, that's what the discussion is for

I guess, I took from the tone of the OP that they were looking at it in a broader sense—is the game something that people can play without raiding? The answer to that is yes. Whether or not an individual will like the game without raiding is a different question entirely, as individuals are complex creatures.

The OP's longer answer even touches on this:

For example, I don't expect that a current end-game raider will agree that the game is viable without the end-game content because that is what they play.

None of the wealth of the game's non-raiding content matters if someone doesn't find that content fun—but once you start getting into the subjective stuff, you're not really talking about a general sense of whether the game provides enough outside of raiding anymore.

But in general, the game's certainly viable for non-raiders that find its gameplay fun, like the aesthetics, love Final Fantasy, or whatever.

I've got a friend from FFXI and WoW who's not a raider anymore due to having more to do outside of gaming than he used to (married, kids, work, etc). He loves Guild Wars 2 because he feels like it doesn't ask as much of him in terms of investment (his main hangup for FFXIV is the MSQ requirements, for what it's worth, and he's looking at going back to WoW for Legion).

I don't recommend the game to him because of his individual circumstances, but I'd recommend trying it to most MMO players if I didn't know much of their general preferences who don't raid if they'd enjoyed similar games in the past (namely, WoW, which is the game's closest analogue), especially if they were fans of Final Fantasy generally (which you aren't, of course).

[Kaurie]

Looks like I got another post. I wish they'd at least give us a countdown somewhere so we'd know when the damn thing refreshed.

Yeah, i review my history sometimes to see and countdown lol. The forum limit is very frustrating.

I guess, I took from the tone of the OP that they were looking at it in a broader sense—is the game something that people can play without raiding? The answer to that is yes. Whether or not an individual will like the game without raiding is a different question entirely, as individuals are complex creatures.

I guess I see that as a non-question, as the OP is currently playing the game and not raiding. So, of course people can do it and the OP knows it. So I figured that there must be a deeper meaning, and that is why I took the route I did.

None of the wealth of the game's non-raiding content matters if someone doesn't find that content fun—but once you start getting into the subjective stuff, you're not really talking about a general sense of whether the game provides enough outside of raiding anymore.

Indeed, I think FFXIV delivers a lot outside of raiding, and in my opinion it's mostly terrible. So in that sense, I don't think it's viable outside of raiding. However, some people enjoy it, and it's there, so in that sense it is viable.

But in general, the game's certainly viable for non-raiders that find its gameplay fun, like the aesthetics, love Final Fantasy, or whatever.

No argument, but I don't see how this could even be a question, nevermind warrant a discussion topic.

I've got a friend from FFXI and WoW who's not a raider anymore due to having more to do outside of gaming than he used to (married, kids, work, etc). He loves Guild Wars 2 because he feels like it doesn't ask as much of him in terms of investment (his main hangup for FFXIV is the MSQ requirements, for what it's worth, and he's looking at going back to WoW for Legion).

Pretty much what I am getting at

I don't recommend the game to him because of his individual circumstances, but I'd recommend trying it to most MMO players if I didn't know much of their general preferences who don't raid if they'd enjoyed similar games in the past (namely, WoW, which is the game's closest analogue), especially if they were fans of Final Fantasy generally (which you aren't, of course).

Ah, you must remember from another post! Yes, I am not a long time FF fan, but I still enjoy this game and its story. They are amazing. I think that how viable this game is depends very much on your general preferences, and if you weren't in to raiding, I would undoubtedly recommend a different MMO.

[Alahra]

Indeed, I think FFXIV delivers a lot outside of raiding, and in my opinion it's mostly terrible. So in that sense, I don't think it's viable outside of raiding. However, some people enjoy it, and it's there, so in that sense it is viable.

I'm relatively sure it's that second sense the OP was getting at, at least going by context. Who knows why they thought to ask the question. Maybe it was a thought prompted by an in-game discussion with someone, or whatever else.

Overall, though, I think you're actually answering a different question than the one the OP asked, at least in the full context of their longer answer. They weren't necessarily asking "could raiders have fun in this game if they didn't raid?" but more "can a non-raider enjoy this game?" since they specifically bring up the fact that raiding players probably wouldn't enjoy the game without raiding.

I think it may also come down to the definition of "viable," though. You seem to be using it in a different sense than I am. If someone asks me "Is this viable?" that, to me is the same question as "Can this work?" whereas you seem to be answering a question that is more "Would you like this?" Viability isn't generally something determined based on subjective values.

At the post cap again. *sigh*

Indeed, I may have misunderstood the post due to my perception of the question I was reading being too obvious. I wasn't answering, "could raiders have fun in this game if they didn't raid?". I was answering, "If I do not enjoy raiding, is this the right game for me?"

Looks like I edited a bit more as you were responding: but essentially, the question you're answering isn't one of viability but rather one of subjective preference. Whether someone will like a game comes down to a ton of stuff that doesn't have much to do with the game's viability i.e., its potential to be successful or functional.

Put another way, asking if the game is "viable" for non-raiders is the same as asking whether it is feasible (or possible) that a non-raider could enjoy it. Again, the answer to that question is yes. An option can be feasible or possible even if another option might in some ways be better.

For sure, sorry for draining your posts! I think that I just assumed viable wasn't really the word the OP meant to be using, as again the answer to that is obvious.

Well, what's obvious to one person may not be obvious to another. The OP seems to have put a lot of thought into it—maybe it was a thought experiment, maybe they were wondering about whether they should recommend the game to someone, or whatever else. I'm sure you know the old adage about what happens when one assumes, after all.

[Kaurie]

I'm relatively sure it's that second sense the OP was getting at, at least going by context. Who knows why they thought to ask the question. Maybe it was a thought prompted by an in-game discussion with someone, or whatever else.

Overall, though, I think you're actually answering a different question than the one the OP asked, at least in the full context of their longer answer. They weren't necessarily asking "could raiders have fun in this game if they didn't raid?" but more "can a non-raider enjoy this game?" since they specifically bring up the fact that raiding players probably wouldn't enjoy the game without raiding.

Indeed, I may have misunderstood the post due to my perception of the question I was reading being too obvious. I wasn't answering, "could raiders have fun in this game if they didn't raid?". I was answering, "If I do not enjoy raiding, is this the right game for me?"

I think it may also come down to the definition of "viable," though. You seem to be using it in a different sense than I am. If someone asks me "Is this viable?" that, to me is the same question as "Can this work?" whereas you seem to be answering a question that is more "Would you like this?" Viability isn't generally something determined based on subjective values.

For sure, sorry for draining your posts! I think that I just assumed viable wasn't really the word the OP meant to be using, as again the answer to that is obvious. It's like asking if it's viable to listen to Justin Bieber if you don't attend concerts. Of course you can still listen to him without attending his concerts - Personally, I hate Justin Bieber, so it's not very viable :P but yes, you can. It's a non question. It's asking, "can you enjoy something that was specifically made so you can enjoy it?". Yes. Why are you asking us this?

Well, what's obvious to one person may not be obvious to another. The OP seems to have put a lot of thought into it—maybe it was a thought experiment, maybe they were wondering about whether they should recommend the game to someone, or whatever else. I'm sure you know the old adage about what happens when one assumes, after all.

I guess.

I'll just assume I misunderstood the post and bow out, as the post as you are describing is a conversation I don't really feel I want to contribute to

[Kosmos992k]

I guess I see that as a non-question, as the OP is currently playing the game and not raiding. So, of course people can do it and the OP knows it. So I figured that there must be a deeper meaning, and that is why I took the route I did.

Yes and no. There was not any hidden deeper meaning, I just wanted to get a discussion going about whether the veritable mountain of content that encompasses the game was a sufficient draw to keep the game healthy, even if players joining now look at the mountain and wonder whether they can reach the top. Yes, I am playing now, and I feel that there is more than enough here to keep people satisfied, without participating in the current patch series raids. But that's my opinion, not yours or anyone else's.

I wanted to know how others feel. I've many times read posts from players who obviously fall into the category of 'raider' suggesting that without them, without raids, the game would die. I'm not so sure of that, so that was part of why I was asking, to see what people think about playing this game without raid content. Clearly though the game benefits from having a wide range of players including raiders, and there needs to be content for those players to keep them happy and engaged. That raid content that might be considered irrelevant by players like myself right now, will probably become more relevant once the 4.X series of patches arrive. Just as through overgearing, it's possible to start enjoying harder end-game and raid content from FFXIV 2.X now that we can gear up with 3.X.

The thing is, I play to relax, and have previously found end-game to be stressful to me. I don't enjoy it. I can do it, but I don't enjoy it. Overgearing and power creep means that over time content that was once stressful, is no longer a source of stress, and can be enjoyed. It's often concluded that players who don't participate in end-game do not do so because they are not good enough. that's a fallacy IMHO. I do not participate because RL time restrictions make it very nearly impossible, and because I want to relax when I play, so I avoid stressful content; not because I can't do it.

[Kaurie]

Yes and no. There was not any hidden deeper meaning, I just wanted to get a discussion going about whether the veritable mountain of content that encompasses the game was a sufficient draw to keep the game healthy, even if players joining now look at the mountain and wonder whether they can reach the top. Yes, I am playing now, and I feel that there is more than enough here to keep people satisfied, without participating in the current patch series raids. But that's my opinion, not yours or anyone else's.


I wanted to know how others feel. I've many times read posts from players who obviously fall into the category of 'raider' suggesting that without them, without raids, the game would die. I'm not so sure of that, so that was part of why I was asking, to see what people think about playing this game without raid content. Clearly though the game benefits from having a wide range of players including raiders, and there needs to be content for those players to keep them happy and engaged. That raid content that might be considered irrelevant by players like myself right now, will probably become more relevant once the 4.X series of patches arrive. Just as through overgearing, it's possible to start enjoying harder end-game and raid content from FFXIV 2.X now that we can gear up with 3.X.

The thing is, I play to relax, and have previously found end-game to be stressful to me. I don't enjoy it. I can do it, but I don't enjoy it. Overgearing and power creep means that over time content that was once stressful, is no longer a source of stress, and can be enjoyed. It's often concluded that players who don't participate in end-game do not do so because they are not good enough. that's a fallacy IMHO. I do not participate because RL time restrictions make it very nearly impossible, and because I want to relax when I play, so I avoid stressful content; not because I can't do it.

Gotcha, thanks for taking the time to reply and clarify what you meant. I'm sorry if I derailed your thread.

In response to,

I've many times read posts from players who obviously fall into the category of 'raider' suggesting that without them, without raids, the game would die.

I feel that it comes down to two things (in my opinion).

1. There is a trickle down effect, that even if you don't directly raid, the raiding scene does impact you. This could be in creating demand for crafted food and potions, and it could mean that it attracts more 'hardcore' players who are invested enough to research and build guides for non raiders to peruse.

2. I would love for FFXIV to be better outside of the raiding scene. As I mentioned, I feel this game is fairly terrible outside of raids. Seasonal events, gold saucer activities, crafting, gathering, hunts, FATEs are all similar things that are implemented in other games but done so much worse here (again, in my opinion). I wrote a lot about Guild Wars 2, but in regards to those sorts of things, GW2 is great.

In that same sense, however, a game without raids will definitely not die. Guild Wars 2 is a perfect example of this. It's estimated to be a fairly similar active playerbase to FFXIV (perhaps slightly higher), and it only just recently added raids.

[Kosmos992k]

Gotcha, thanks for taking the time to reply and clarify what you meant. I'm sorry if I derailed your thread.

Thanks, and there is no derailment I can see, justva good discussion.

1. There is a trickle down effect, that even if you don't directly raid, the raiding scene does impact you. This could be in creating demand for crafted food and potions, and it could mean that it attracts more 'hardcore' players who are invested enough to research and build guides for non raiders to peruse.

I agree with this. Like I was saying above the raids that dedicated or hardcore raiders are working on in 3.X will become the content that many other players enjoy for the first time around the time 4.0 drops. So, in addition to the trickle down you mention, the content trickles down too. Also, that trickle down you mentioned is a pretty darn good argument against segregating end game/raiding on separate servers.

It would be nice if the community could find a way to break down the walls we've created and build bridges between parts ofnthe community instead.

2. I would love for FFXIV to be better outside of the raiding scene. As I mentioned, I feel this game is fairly terrible outside of raids. Seasonal events, gold saucer activities, crafting, gathering, hunts, FATEs are all similar things that are implemented in other games but done so much worse here (again, in my opinion).

I wish you could like the game more, but it's all about personal preference. I'll hope SE manages to find a way to please you more. GW2 has never really had a pull on me, but then I'm a JRPG fan, so this game gives some of what I want.