Is FFXIV viable as an MMORPG without doing end-game & raiding?

[Alahra]

Yes, I would say it is.

The Savage and EX content is an extremely small slice of the game's content, even at the level cap. Nearly all of the added content is aimed at non-raiders, including dungeons, normal mode Alexander, 24-man "raids" (which aren't really raids in the traditional MMO sense), tomestone gear, and so on.

The majority of players don't even do Savage or EX Primals, after all, and the game seems to be doing quite well for itself.

I think there is a subset of players who probably could or should raid that don't for whatever reason (such as not wanting or being able to find a static group) who are likely to suffer burnout, though, as the game doesn't have much content "in between" the non-raid and the raid (that is, Savage/EX) content.

[Moomba33]

I'd say it's viable. I myself usually don't bother with endgame stuff until it's on DF with echo and I have friends who didn't do any of the ARR ex primals until we could unsync them in Heavensward.

I'd be curious to see numbers for how much of the playerbase does endgame while it's current.

[Aoxaviar]

I have been a part of this world since 2.0 Beta and for what keeps me here is 2 separate issues, and 1 is completely looked over and the other is hinted at:

1 - My SE cherry was FFVII and I was hooked from that point forward. I am a lock-step loyalist to the Final Fantasy franchise. With that said, no I haven't beaten and played everything they have. I played but didn't finish FFIX (story was ok, but the cartoony graphics are what finally did it) and I never touched FFXI (didn't have a PC that would handle it, and didn't want to spend $100 on a console game which needed a hard drive at that time. Besides PS3 was fast approaching!)

2 - Based upon all of my single player gaming experience in the FF Universes, I have found that I am a completionist type of player. I want to do it all, and will do it all. Downside is that I don't get paid to play, so I do have real world commits (family, job, etc) so I play when I can. With that said I haven't gotten my crafters maxed, 2 out of 3 gathers at 60, one DoW at 60, 3 out of 5 mages at 50, all other fight jobs at 30 to 35.

Now with all of that said, I will never be the type of player who goes after Savage Raid Content unless it is years old and I finally decide to care about it.

For me its story and trying to complete the story. Do I do raids, sure, they are part of the story (somehow) related to the rest of the happenings.

These are the points that I think keep the subs up for the game since most of us who keep our subs active are players like myself - we play because we love it and we also play at our own pace.

I do agree with some points made by others - alot of talk happens from the very loud fringe portions of the community which is probably anywhere from 1% to 10% of the total community based on information provided.

As for marketing this game, I don't think SE really markets anything about this game. Hell, I never even heard they put out 1.0! and if you wish to hate on me for that, I accept it.

I think that SE knows that their base is the player like myself, and they know as long a content is added, the bar is being moved either radically (expansions) or generally (patches) that I will continue to spend my $20 USA to keep exploring and enjoying the world that is a second home.

Now if I could just get my book worm of a wife to try this story out....separate discussion but will never happen.

[Kaurie]

Yes, I would say it is.

The Savage and EX content is an extremely small slice of the game's content, even at the level cap. Nearly all of the added content is aimed at non-raiders, including dungeons, normal mode Alexander, 24-man "raids" (which aren't really raids in the traditional MMO sense), tomestone gear, and so on.

The majority of players don't even do Savage or EX Primals, after all, and the game seems to be doing quite well for itself.

I think there is a subset of players who probably could or should raid that don't for whatever reason (such as not wanting or being able to find a static group) who are likely to suffer burnout, though, as the game doesn't have much content "in between" the non-raid and the raid (that is, Savage/EX) content.

I would say that all of the extra content is used to get you ready for raiding. For example, you run dungeons to get tomes so you can buy max gear for raiding. You run Alex normal to get gear so you can buy higher gear for raiding. You craft so you can make potions and food for raiding.

I am sure people enjoy these activities outside of raiding, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are separate content. They're more like a pre-requisite. The better player you are, the less of this you need, and the worse player you are the more you need (i.e. clearing prior to or with Void Ark/Thordan gear).

[Alahra]

I would say that all of the extra content is used to get you ready for raiding.

That's true, of course—that's essentially the structure the developers have in place. But that doesn't mean people can't find enjoyment in the game without following the structure to its natural endpoint.

The question wasn't about how the game is structured but more about whether there is enough content if you don't raid, and given the majority of players that don't, I'd say the answer is essentially yes to that specific question. Plenty of players are happy to complete their max-level gearsets using only Tomestone gear and never touch raiding, and greater numbers of players still never complete a max-level gearset at all, and they continue to pay for and play the game.

Edit just to expand a little: That being said, I think the presence of raiding content is necessary even for players who don't ever engage with it. It's the ultimate "carrot," and I would imagine that even for many players who don't raid, the thought that they might someday is part of what keeps them working on their gear and such.

But in terms of whether or not a player needs to raid to have enough content, they definitely don't. You didn't even need to in WoW (at least until the last couple expansion), and that game was rather raid-heavy compared to FFXIV.

Edit again since I'm at the post cap:

All of that said, if you don't like raiding, Guild Wars 2 is a far better game.

But that's entirely subjective. I'm not really traditionally a raider (I do raid casually in FFXIV but it's the first game where I've done so and when I'm not raiding I still get plenty of enjoyment out of the game), but I can't stand GW2. I don't like the art style, the character animations, the combat, the ability system—hell, I don't even like the game's movement.

Edit response again:

Finally, in terms of subjectivity - yes, it is. However, it's also more agreed upon. MMORPG.com has Guild Wars 2 be the #1 game fairly consistently
Guild Wars 2 hits for the year = 1.6 million
FFXIV = 0.9 million

Gamerankings.com average review scores:
Guild Wars 2 average reviews = 90.02%
FFXIV = 86.08%
that said, Heavensward beats out Heart of the Thorns (never played GW2 expansion)

Well, yeah. That's to be expected since GW2 is free, and its aesthetics are also more...western? FFXIV is still a JRPG at its core and that naturally lowers its appeal to broader audiences. That doesn't mean FFXIV isn't viable: it just means it's not the best.

(However, as an aside, if you go to the Game List on mmorpg.com and sort by Rating/Hype, you'll see that FFXIV is at 8.52, only .05 below GW2's 8.57. I'd say that's overall pretty close for a JRPG that's also subscription-based).

I was only responding to the question in the OP, which was whether or not this game has enough content if you don't raid, and ultimately I think it does for enough players to consider the game "viable," (that is, not a failure).

Regarding most of the other things you asked about, my distaste for GW2 kept me from playing enough to even know much about any of its systems. The core gameplay was a failure to me from the get-go, so I never got into the nitty gritty. What I can talk about, generally, though, are these:

I don't think the combat in either one is better necessarily. You keep using that word but it ultimately comes down to preference, which is again subjective. I don't like faster combat and I don't like action-based combat, so GW2 naturally isn't going to be "better" for me. I do wish FFXIV had more customization options, as you know, but I also wouldn't really consider that part of the game's combat, as customization isn't going to generally change how the combat gameplay goes—it just changes which buttons you press in what order, if even that.

When it comes to inventory—yeah, FFXIV has some major issues, I won't deny that. But I guess I'm also used to those issues because FFXI's inventory issues were worse by an order of magnitude up until recently. I've not made a secret of the fact that I currently pay for five extra retainers, and yeah, I'd prefer not to have to, and if we ever get a glamour catalogue or something, I'll probably scale back down to just two extra or something. But again, the game's still viable.

Jumping puzzles? Please keep those as far away from me as possible. If I wanted jumping puzzles, I'd go play a platformer (and I do sometimes). When I'm playing an RPG, I don't want a great deal of "action" elements.

I've been a vocal critic of the FFXIV zone design since 2.0, and I wish the zones were more expansive. I'm still sad we got more expansive zones in HW and they promptly made that expansiveness meaningless with the addition of flight. It still doesn't mean the game's not viable if you don't do endgame.

The map design is ultimately an aesthetic, subjective thing, again. I like the "old-style yellow maps."

I've also been vocally critical of the Hunt zerg. But that still, again, doesn't mean FFXIV isn't viable. I know people that frickin' love hunts for some reason. I don't understand them. But they exist.

As far as the leveling experience goes, eh. I enjoyed it. But I also didn't grind FATEs. I did the content I liked: dungeons.

[Kaurie]

Of course, in one sense, that's true—that's essentially the structure the developers have in place. But that doesn't mean people can't find enjoyment in the game without following the structure to its natural endpoint.

The question wasn't about how the game is structured but more about whether there is enough content if you don't raid, and given the majority of players that don't, I'd say the answer is essentially yes to that specific question. Plenty of players are happy to complete their max-level gearsets using only Tomestone gear and never touch raiding, and greater numbers of players still never complete a max-level gearset at all, and they continue to pay for and play the game.

Indeed, i guess I am struggling with the question from the OP. Is it a viable game? Yes, even Tetris is a 'viable' game. However, is it one of the better MMO's without raiding? I'd say no. FFXIV reaches the best balance of everything, but ultimately fails in a lot of ways compared to other MMO's on the market. The thing is, FFXIV's core is the best, whereas in the other games the negatives are often deal breakers (for me). If FFXIV didn't have raiding, I'd probably place FFXIV 5th or so on my list of MMO's to play -> 1. WoW, 2. Guild Wars 2, 3. Wildstar, 4. Blade and Soul, 5. FFXIV - whereas currently, FFXIV sits in #1 for me. This is likely to change with Legion, as I have high hopes for it and with every patch the dev team shoves me further away in FFXIV (though, time will tell).

All of that said, if you don't like raiding, Guild Wars 2 is a far better game. I listed this already, but have expanded my list and wanted to bring it back as I feel it is important to answering the question. Is FFXIV viable without raiding? On it's own yes. In the context of other MMO's on the market? No, GW2 is significantly better and has no sub fee.

GW2 has better:
leveling experience
combat
pvp
gathering
crafting
market
open world events
open world bosses
cash shop
non-combat content (jumping puzzles)
seasonal events
job balance
glamour system
wardrobe system
wallet
inventory
armor skins
daily activities
maps
zones

FFXIV has better:
Instanced PvE content
Trinity - wins
Story

But that's entirely subjective. I'm not really traditionally a raider (I do raid casually in FFXIV but it's the first game where I've done so and when I'm not raiding I still get plenty of enjoyment out of the game), but I can't stand GW2. I don't like the art style, the character animations, the combat, the ability system, or the PvP—hell, I don't even like the game's movement.

Entirely fair. It is subjective.

I have a hard time seeing how one could say the combat is better in FFXIV though. GW2 is faster, allows you to customize more, and is more action based.
I don't like the PvP either, but I don't like PvP in any game (even CoD), so my opinion on that is based more on consensus that I've seen via discussions.
Character animations are definitely nicer in FFXIV, you are right there - walking in GW2 feels funny.

However, how do you feel about say;
Super Adventure Box vs Little Ladies Day
Jumping Puzzles vs Sightseeing Log
Depositing gathered materials in to a crafting bank from anywhere vs running out of inventory constantly
Having a crafting bank vs paying for multiple retainers
Dynamic events vs FATEs
Having a saved wardrobe vs buying glamour prisms and hogging inventory space
Zones that are expansive and allow you to go everywhere vs narrow zones and invisible walls galore
Maps that are colourful and clear vs yellow old-style maps
A cash shop you can use in-game gold to buy nice glamours vs a cash shop that requires real money and won't allow refunds for mistaken purchases
Open world bosses that are epic and require coordination vs Hunts that die in 12 seconds
A leveling experience that lets you experience multiple paths of a story vs a leveling experience of grinding FATEs

I just have a very hard time seeing how one could say FFXIV is better in any of the ways above. However, the ones below I can see how one could argue FFXIV is better - they just really aren't for me.
Crafting
Gathering
Daily Activities

Finally, in terms of subjectivity - yes, it is. However, it's also more agreed upon. MMORPG.com has Guild Wars 2 be the #1 game fairly consistently
Guild Wars 2 hits for the year = 1.6 million
FFXIV = 0.9 million

Gamerankings.com average review scores:
Guild Wars 2 average reviews = 90.02%
FFXIV = 86.08%
that said, Heavensward beats out Heart of the Thorns (never played GW2 expansion)

[Dante_V]

Is it viable? Absolutely. But you have presented a false dichotomy in the summary.

"That leaves me with another question, are you better off marketing the game based on the vast and sprawling world and story, or do you target traditional MMORPG players who want end-game to be good and care less about the rest of the game?"

These things are not mutually exclusive and traditional MMORPG players care about the journey to end game as much as the end game itself, however end game is generally considered where the bulk of engaging and challenging content is located. Within the context of what is "better" to market (better in marketing implies the greatest amount of returns in profit and interest in the marketing campaign) I would say playing to the strengths and desires of the core MMO fan base is better in every way as this tends to be the sheer bulk of the potential customer base. With this in mind each individual has there own likes and dislikes in what they wish to achieve in game. Some like PVP. Some like farming. Some like hardcore content. Other just like socializing. These various demographics and more make up the average MMO fan base. With the sub based business model, promoting and providing value for the sub fee is extremely important. The demographic of players willing to pay a sub for a game is extremely limited within the entire demographic of video game players, so appealing to the value of the content at end game is important for this business model, especially when the story can be completed (ARR) within the the trial period.

So from an advertising and marketing standpoint the general MMO demographic is the core customer base and will produce the most returns for the marketing investment.

[Kaurie]

I don't think the combat in either one is better necessarily. You keep using that word but it ultimately comes down to preference, which is again subjective. I don't like faster combat and I don't like action-based combat, so GW2 naturally isn't going to be "better" for me.

Sorry, I feel it is implied when i say something is better in a subjective context that I mean it's my opinion. To clarify, that is all I am saying, in my opinion Guild Wars 2 is better in most ways.

(However, as an aside, if you go to the Game List ont hat site and sort by Rating/Hype, you'll see that FFXIV is at 8.52, only .05 below GW2's 8.57. I'd say that's overall pretty close for a JRPG that's also subscription-based).

Oh, I completely agree - I play FFXIV as I prefer it to Guild Wars 2 overall. I am not here to say that FFXIV is bad, I am just saying if it did not have raids (it's greatest appeal to me) there would be other games that are far better. However, it does have raids (and trinity) so it's imo better.

Jumping puzzles? Please keep those as far away from me as possible. If I wanted jumping puzzles, I'd go play a platformer (and I do sometimes). When I'm playing an RPG, I don't want a great deal of "action" elements.

While my focus in an MMO is more on raids etc, many MMOs work in side content. I've never seen anything quite as fun as side content as Jumping Puzzles. These got particularly fun at higher levels. I liked that you could use your skills as well (such as swiftness to make the jump, or portal to work in a team). Jumping puzzles were hella fun. By contrast, sightseeing log, lov, triple triad, choco racing etc are incredibly lame.

I've been a vocal critic of the FFXIV zone design since 2.0, and I wish the zones were more expansive. I'm still sad we got more expansive zones in HW and they promptly made that expansiveness meaningless with the addition of flight. It still doesn't mean the game's not viable if you don't do endgame.

I thought I made my point clear on this, but perhaps not. I am not saying all of this makes the game not viable, and that any game is 'viable'. However, it's not the best, and there are better options for cheaper if you don't want to raid. Like, let me think of an analogy that will ultimately be torn down by someone who fails to capture what I am attempting to convey, let's say you go buy a bucket of vegetables from a local farmer. There are two buckets in front of you, one bucket has tomatoes in it, which you despise with a passion, as well as things you like such as turnips, squash, lettuce. This bucket is $40, whereas there is a bucket right beside it, which has just turnips, squash, lettuce and is $10. Upon further reflection, you notice in the bucket for $40, the squash and turnips are looking rather moldy. If you don't like tomatos, the logical conclusion is to take the cheaper bucket. It's the more viable option;however, you can still buy the $40 bucket as it is a viable purchase. It just makes less sense of why you'd do that. That is how I perceive the GW2 vs FFXIV argument in regards to raiding/not raiding (raiding being tomatoes).

The map design is ultimately an aesthetic, subjective thing, again. I like the "old-style yellow maps."

Oh. I didn't realize that this could be so subjective. IMO the yellow maps were the most jarring thing for me when i first started playing. I find navigating maps to be very cumbersome (moving between zones in GW2 involves scrolling your mouse wheel, whereas in FFXIV you need to use a bunch of pulldown menus), and I find the yellow maps don't convey the imagery of the zone very well. Like in GW2 I know where mountains, water etc are from the map. I only know in FFXIV from experience.

I've also been vocally critical of the Hunt zerg. But that still, again, doesn't mean FFXIV isn't viable. I know people that frickin' love hunts for some reason. I don't understand them. But they exist.

Again same thing, it depends what you consider viable. It's just that there are better options for cheaper, which I feel makes something less viable.

As far as the leveling experience goes, eh. I enjoyed it. But I also didn't grind FATEs. I did the content I liked: dungeons.

I liked my first leveling experience, but with each job it gets worse and worse; whereas with GW2 it was still fun to level my 8th class up. Again this is subjective.


At the end of the day. The OP asked if they think it's viable, and I feel it's not due to the above. You're welcome to disagree, that's what the discussion is for

[Dante_V]

I also want to point out that there has been a pretty substantial departure of players from the game within the last few months. The bulk being a portion of the hardcore fan base who are unhappy with the current state of the game. From a community standpoint, they are the minority, but from a promotion and business standpoint, they create the largest community impact both in and outside of the game. These are the people who make guides and videos, do radio shows, test stats weights, examine the lore, research and test game play mechanics and are an extremely important demographic. These are the people who are hugely invested both time wise and money wise into the game on a per player basis to a greater degree than those who play an hour or two a day. It has been shown time and time again that when these individuals start leaving the game to go to other games, it starts a domino effect. This thankfully hasn't occured here yet but it is very possible. So catering to their wants and desires becomes equally important in the long haul if the game wishes to stick around for more than a few months. Every successful MMO understands this in the context of their player base. Without these players a huge portion of the actively contributing community disappears. Within this context the desires of those who spend 10 hours a day on the game are just as important than those who spend 2, even if they are a numerical minority, they are the active majority in time contributed both inside and outside the game.

[Alahra]

Looks like I got another post. I wish they'd at least give us a countdown somewhere so we'd know when the damn thing refreshed.

At the end of the day. The OP asked if they think it's viable, and I feel it's not due to the above. You're welcome to disagree, that's what the discussion is for

I guess, I took from the tone of the OP that they were looking at it in a broader sense—is the game something that people can play without raiding? The answer to that is yes. Whether or not an individual will like the game without raiding is a different question entirely, as individuals are complex creatures.

The OP's longer answer even touches on this:

For example, I don't expect that a current end-game raider will agree that the game is viable without the end-game content because that is what they play.

None of the wealth of the game's non-raiding content matters if someone doesn't find that content fun—but once you start getting into the subjective stuff, you're not really talking about a general sense of whether the game provides enough outside of raiding anymore.

But in general, the game's certainly viable for non-raiders that find its gameplay fun, like the aesthetics, love Final Fantasy, or whatever.

I've got a friend from FFXI and WoW who's not a raider anymore due to having more to do outside of gaming than he used to (married, kids, work, etc). He loves Guild Wars 2 because he feels like it doesn't ask as much of him in terms of investment (his main hangup for FFXIV is the MSQ requirements, for what it's worth, and he's looking at going back to WoW for Legion).

I don't recommend the game to him because of his individual circumstances, but I'd recommend trying it to most MMO players if I didn't know much of their general preferences who don't raid if they'd enjoyed similar games in the past (namely, WoW, which is the game's closest analogue), especially if they were fans of Final Fantasy generally (which you aren't, of course).