What Jobs would you like to see in the next Expansion

[Reynhart]

Neither is mob party enmity, or mitigation though.

Enmity is not really an issue in the game, except when there's clear gap in ilvl. As for mitigation, it's much more one sided. Screw your cooldown rotation at the wrong time, and no WHM will be able to save your ass.

If RDM were to be lower in damage but high utility then do you make them fight another class for that one raid spot? That's a problem too.

No, it's not a problem, as long as they're close enough to each other. We already have MNK, DRG and NIN to compete for close-range DPS, why couldn't we have 3 support-DPS ? And, while we're at it, a third caster to compete with BLM and SMN ?

Your making an argument based on the mechanics of an MMO though. Classic FF has no such mechanics. The fact of the matter is enmity isnt a factor in classic FF, it is simply a matter of RNG.

Again, I've never considered enmity part of the problem, since it's either a non-issue in this game, or, as you said, it didn't have any corresponding mechanic in single player FF.
If they decide to make RDM a tank, giving him enmity is the easiest and most basic things to do.
What mechanics older games had, on the other hand, is Defense rating, Vitality, HP, Block and Evasion...and RDM didn't shine in any of them.

One thing that made RDM good, as early as FF I, were Haste and Temper. Two black magic spells, thus accessible to any BLM, that only increases the effectiveness of physical attacks (Hit count and Attack Power), something that BLM was painfully weak at.

Isn't it strange that the spells that benefits RDM more than each of its specialized counterpart are two physical buffs, for the sole meaning of dishing extreme damage with your weapon ?

And, for the record, I did FF I on a solo run with a RDM, and boss strats where "Cast Temper and Haste severals rounds while staying alive, then rip them in a single swing"
No wonder why I see it as a DPS that can heal

[karateorangutang]

One thing that made RDM good, as early as FF I, were Haste and Temper. Two black magic spells, thus accessible to any BLM, that only increases the effectiveness of physical attacks (Hit count and Attack Power), something that BLM was painfully weak at.

Isn't it strange that the spells that benefits RDM more than each of its specialized counterpart are two physical buffs, for the sole meaning of dishing extreme damage with your weapon ?

And, for the record, I did FF I on a solo run with a RDM, and boss strats where "Cast Temper and Haste severals rounds while staying alive, then rip them in a single swing"
No wonder why I see it as a DPS that can heal

Well sure if they actually gave haste and temper to a class. They seem incredibly reluctant to give those types of buffs though, as they could be super potent. I don't see use getting haste at all in this game as there is already several classes that have had haste effects in the past in this game already and there is not haste in sight. Thats a completely different argument though.

There is another argument though... defense minded strats in single player FF were never really that good. You were better off bringing tons of DPS to burn mobs quickly than bringing defense minded parties into the mix.

[Reynhart]

Well sure if they actually gave haste and temper to a class.

Well since initially Haste increased the numbers of hits and Temper temporarilly boost attack power, it's something we already have.
The only difference is that those are, mostly, self targeted only.

There is another argument though... defense minded strats in single player FF were never really that good. You were better off bringing tons of DPS to burn mobs quickly than bringing defense minded parties into the mix.

I don't understand where you're heading with this ? Can you expand, please ?

They really should change the title of this thread to "RDM: Reynhart wants to heal as a DPS"... >w>

That would a little megalomaniac, here...and innacurate, too. Like I said, I'd like RDM to be able to do several things, and I still think that DPS is the role where you can put pretty much whatever you want, as long as your main goal is contributing to killing ennemies.
The strange part upon this is that...I really don't care wether RDM makes its way in the game or not. It's just my view on the job if we eventually have it.

[karateorangutang]

I don't understand where you're heading with this ? Can you expand, please ?

To expand, MMO mechanic recquire a job or class that allow damage to be centralized and a way to mitigate that incoming damage. JRPG's have no such strat. It's more than just keeping hate, its a complete reversal of process. In almost any JRPG it's more beneficial to gear ATK then DEF, because since there is no way to centralize damage any character can be hit. So therefore there is no need for a high defense character. The only reason you took fighter was for melee damage... not defense. So, stringing DEF number units as a reason for something to not be able to mitigate damage seems redundant.

I'm just pointing out that in a MMO setting, where a mage class can equip any kind of armor, that is then usually a defense minded mage. Most mage classes only get robes. In addition to that RDM has a sword and a buckler, something that seems to scream a parry fencer in theme.

Also, we don't have temper. Classes can raise their own attack power, ninja can create a small window of vulnerability. Noone can create a true attack power boost on another character though. Selene has the closest thing to haste... and it's really fairly weak in comparison to any haste ability to appear in the series thus far. Sure though, its kinda there.

I just don't see how it could be a DPS and not the other two roles. It's a conundrum that belies the entire theme of the class itself. Although I believe I'm repeating this point.

[Reynhart]

To expand, MMO mechanic recquire a job or class that allow damage to be centralized and a way to mitigate that incoming damage. JRPG's have no such strat.

Well, that's wrong.

It's easy to find recent games where emity is a thing, even in Final Fantasy. FF XIII with the Sentinel role, FF XII with the Decoy skill, FF X with the Provoke ability...
You could go even further with all the Cover like abilities. In fact, while showing the origin of Calacabrina to my girlfriend (To understand the reference of patch 3.2), I've found a low level FFIV run where the player kept every one at critical HP to ensure that any physical attack will be targeted at Cecil.
And the recent 3D version of FF III also gave Provoke to the Viking Job.

As for Mitigation, Guard is also an old skill in FF, and FF III pushed this even further by allowing a character to dual wield shields.

I'm just pointing out that in a MMO setting, where a mage class can equip any kind of armor, that is then usually a defense minded mage.

Yes, most mages only get robes. But switching to "Mages are not frontline characters because they only wear robes" to "RDM is the tank because he can wear light armor" is, maybe, skipping a step.

In addition to that RDM has a sword and a buckler, something that seems to scream a parry fencer in theme.

To wear a shield, all you need is a one-handed weapon. It's sad to assume that having a one-handed weapon will automatically make you a tank.

In almost any JRPG it's more beneficial to gear ATK then DEF

Do you realize, that, for now, FFXIV follows that idea as much as it can ?

Also, we don't have temper. Classes can raise their own attack power, ninja can create a small window of vulnerability. Noone can create a true attack power boost on another character though.

Yes, we don't have a proper "Temper"...that's what I said when I mentionned "self targeted only". But giving the ability to increase the target's attack power would exactly be something new and valuable.

I just don't see how it could be a DPS and not the other two roles. It's a conundrum that belies the entire theme of the class itself. Although I believe I'm repeating this point.

Yes, you are. And I'll also repeat myself. Tanks are already pretty hard to balance, since the game lacks complexity. Having a tank that can survive, do damage, and heal will, again, make it a direct contender with PLD.
(And if you look at FF history, those jobs are indeed pretty close to each other, by both being "Frontline jobs that can heal")
And since survival is automatically enough and healing is not meaningful (for a tank), then the tank that will be excluded will be the one that deals less damage, be it RDM or PLD.

[karateorangutang]

I unfortunately don't have alot of time to answer all the points you did so I'll answer the ones that are the most relevant.

It's easy to find recent games where emity is a thing, even in Final Fantasy. FF XIII with the Sentinel role, FF XII with the Decoy skill, FF X with the Provoke ability...
You could go even further with all the Cover like abilities. In fact, while showing the origin of Calacabrina to my girlfriend (To understand the reference of patch 3.2), I've found a low level FFIV run where the player kept every one at critical HP to ensure that any physical attack will be targeted at Cecil.
And the recent 3D version of FF III also gave Provoke to the Viking Job.

Half of this comment is either something that wasn't intended in the game structure, or was applied in an update to the game. I'm sorry but i'll rephrase then. Classic JRPG's.

As for Mitigation, Guard is also an old skill in FF, and FF III pushed this even further by allowing a character to dual wield shields.

Guess I'm confused how this relates to its corresponding comment. Yes... guard is old. So is parry.

Yes, most mages only get robes. But switching to "Mages are not frontline characters because they only wear robes" to "RDM is the tank because he can wear light armor" is, maybe, skipping a step.

I just disagree here, mages with buff spells and light armor could be more than durable, but I guess we'll just agree to disagree here.

Do you realize, that, for now, FFXIV follows that idea as much as it can ?

I'm having a calm debate with you. I don't why you would think I'm ignorant of the game meta.

(And if you look at FF history, those jobs are indeed pretty close to each other, by both being "Frontline jobs that can heal")[/I]
And since survival is automatically enough and healing is not meaningful (for a tank), then the tank that will be excluded will be the one that deals less damage, be it RDM or PLD.

Again, I'm well aware of the mechanics and state of the game. I've stated before that I doubt we will see another tank in the next expansion. Probably a melee DPS, ranged caster DPS, and a melee caster DPS of some variety. Again RDM is bait, it's a terrible idea to implement in this game as evidenced by the huge threads debating what it should be, but the fact that people talk about it is good for SE. There's solid arguments for nearly every single role possible due the the flexible nature of the class. It could literally be anything... and as such is guaranteed to be a disappointment to 2/3's of the people that have memories of one iteration of RDM or another. I don't see how the implementation of this class in any form is a good idea.

As for PLD... we'll just have to wait and see what's in store for 3.2.

[Reynhart]

Half of this comment is either something that wasn't intended in the game structure, or was applied in an update to the game. I'm sorry but i'll rephrase then. Classic JRPG's.

The only "update" was "Provoke for Viking". All the rest was in those games from the beginning. I can add that, in FF II, being in the back row prevented you from being targeted by physical attacks, and that, in the Dragon Quest series (Starting from III) the order of the party have a great influence on the odds of being targeted.
You can't really be more Classic JRPG-esque

Guess I'm confused how this relates to its corresponding comment. Yes... guard is old. So is parry.

No, I'm talking about Guard (or Defend) as a skill that reduces (Or even negates) physical damage. It's an active mitigation skill starting in FF III.

It could literally be anything... and as such is guaranteed to be a disappointment to 2/3's of the people that have memories of one iteration of RDM or another.

On that we'll just agree to...well, agree. But I'm not sure being sure to disappoint people is enough to prevent them from doing it, judging by the tease. That's also why I wouldn't mind if RDM does not make its way into the game.

[Mimilu]

The strange part upon this is that...I really don't care wether RDM makes its way in the game or not. It's just my view on the job if we eventually have it.

Oh yes, the several pages full of your rants speak to your indifference on the subject. >w>

[Reynhart]

Oh yes, the several pages full of your rants speak to your indifference on the subject. >w>

Wow, I got chills seeing how successful you seem to be reading my mind...

At least I try to keep my ideas close to what RDM had been, not just using to name on whatever job they might throw at me.