What Jobs would you like to see in the next Expansion

[karateorangutang]

i wish SE would drop hints as too what jobs they are actually working on...but we'd have to wait till fanfest. Also Beast Master does sound nice, what weapons would they use though?

Classically, they use whips... not sure how feasible that is for animations though. In XI they used one handed axes, but whips would be way cooler lol.

[Reynhart]

You mean the plethora of protective white magic spells that it always had and that it could equip shields?

Spells like Protect, Invis, NullBlaze, NullFrost ? All those spells that WHM also had ? Or you mean Protera, NullAll, Reflect, Blink, Shell ? Those spells that...RDM didn't have but WHM did...prior to FFXI ?
Or the fact that WHM can also equip Shields (With even a better skill in FFXI), and, in FFXI, wear heavier armor than RDM ?

Fun fact : In most games where WHM and RDM exists, WHM's Vitality is equal or higher than RDM.

Should WHM be a tank ?

[karateorangutang]

Spells like Protect, Invis, NullBlaze, NullFrost ? All those spells that WHM also had ? Or you mean Protera, NullAll, Reflect, Blink, Shell ? Those spells that...RDM didn't have but WHM did...prior to FFXI ?
Or the fact that WHM can also equip Shields (With even a better skill in FFXI), and, in FFXI, wear heavier armor than RDM ?

Fun fact : In most games where WHM and RDM exists, WHM's Vitality is equal or higher than RDM.

Should WHM be a tank ?

By your reasoning yes then. If RDM is a DPS cause it leans slightly into DPS, that BLM far eclipses, then yes it should be.

All the more reason why it doenst belong.

You didn't take into account defense values and block rates as well... so yes RDM still outshines WHM in terms of survivability.

[Reynhart]

By your reasoning yes then. If RDM is a DPS cause it leans slightly into DPS, that BLM far eclipses, then yes it should be.

No, because, again, DPS is not a single person responsibility. Even if BLM completely trumps RDM on personal DPS, it doesn't mean that RDM would not be desired in setups.
After all, BRD and MCH are undoubtedly lower than any other pure DPS, yet their utility makes them valuable in every content.

You didn't take into account defense values and block rates as well... so yes RDM still outshines WHM in terms of survivability.

Aren't you forgetting some slight things here ? Things like Regen, Medica II, Benediction, Assize, Tetragrammaton...

Make a test, if you will. Take a MNK and a WHM, at the same lvl/ilvl, and see who dies first against the same mob, without using Second Wind for the MNK and neither Cure, Cure 2 or Cure 3 for the WHM (Since RDM would probably have something on par to heal itself).
That will show you how valuable is Defense, and Fist of Earth is better than everything a shield could offer. Of course, the WHM can Protect and Stoneskin the MNK.

[karateorangutang]

No, because, again, DPS is not a single person responsibility. Even if BLM completely trumps RDM on personal DPS, it doesn't mean that RDM would not be desired in setups.
After all, BRD and MCH are undoubtedly lower than any other pure DPS, yet their utility makes them valuable in every content.

Neither is mob party enmity, or mitigation though. BRD and MCH occupy one slot of a raid because of their DPS, when there are three spots open to every other DPS class thus making them more variable. That's not necessarily a bad thing because of what happened in 3.0 with BRD being the best DPS available for almost everything, but its still a limitation. If RDM were to be lower in damage but high utility then do you make them fight another class for that one raid spot? That's a problem too.

Aren't you forgetting some slight things here ? Things like Regen, Medica II, Benediction, Assize, Tetragrammaton...

Make a test, if you will. Take a MNK and a WHM, at the same lvl/ilvl, and see who dies first against the same mob, without using Second Wind for the MNK and neither Cure, Cure 2 or Cure 3 for the WHM (Since RDM would probably have something on par to heal itself).
That will show you how valuable is Defense, and Fist of Earth is better than everything a shield could offer. Of course, the WHM can Protect and Stoneskin the MNK.

Your making an argument based on the mechanics of an MMO though. Classic FF has no such mechanics. The fact of the matter is enmity isnt a factor in classic FF, it is simply a matter of RNG. If you were in a battle and the RNG of the fight just so happened to drop your WHM in one round, then that happened. That won't happen in this game though because mobs are simply weaker per character. Since character survivability was really just a matter of RNG and defense values then how can that be counted on to even try to establish mechanics in a MMORPG where party survivability is a function of teamwork and not just how many levels you have.

I'm not really understanding your point on the second test, to show that WHM has abilities beyond cure to stay alive? Sure... since alot of classes have abilities taken from XI then why can't RDM have phalanx, regen type spells and other things to keep them alive?

Again this isn't a matter of fitting them into a role, I said its personal opinion that I believe that they could fit into a tank role. I have no delusions of convincing you that they shouldn't be a DPS. It's pretty apparent that we are both hard-headed. Any point you make can be counter pointed though in the case of RDM as it's almost completely equal in terms of healing, damage, survivability.

[Reynhart]

Neither is mob party enmity, or mitigation though.

Enmity is not really an issue in the game, except when there's clear gap in ilvl. As for mitigation, it's much more one sided. Screw your cooldown rotation at the wrong time, and no WHM will be able to save your ass.

If RDM were to be lower in damage but high utility then do you make them fight another class for that one raid spot? That's a problem too.

No, it's not a problem, as long as they're close enough to each other. We already have MNK, DRG and NIN to compete for close-range DPS, why couldn't we have 3 support-DPS ? And, while we're at it, a third caster to compete with BLM and SMN ?

Your making an argument based on the mechanics of an MMO though. Classic FF has no such mechanics. The fact of the matter is enmity isnt a factor in classic FF, it is simply a matter of RNG.

Again, I've never considered enmity part of the problem, since it's either a non-issue in this game, or, as you said, it didn't have any corresponding mechanic in single player FF.
If they decide to make RDM a tank, giving him enmity is the easiest and most basic things to do.
What mechanics older games had, on the other hand, is Defense rating, Vitality, HP, Block and Evasion...and RDM didn't shine in any of them.

One thing that made RDM good, as early as FF I, were Haste and Temper. Two black magic spells, thus accessible to any BLM, that only increases the effectiveness of physical attacks (Hit count and Attack Power), something that BLM was painfully weak at.

Isn't it strange that the spells that benefits RDM more than each of its specialized counterpart are two physical buffs, for the sole meaning of dishing extreme damage with your weapon ?

And, for the record, I did FF I on a solo run with a RDM, and boss strats where "Cast Temper and Haste severals rounds while staying alive, then rip them in a single swing"
No wonder why I see it as a DPS that can heal

[Mimilu]

They really should change the title of this thread to "RDM: Reynhart wants to heal as a DPS"... >w>

[karateorangutang]

One thing that made RDM good, as early as FF I, were Haste and Temper. Two black magic spells, thus accessible to any BLM, that only increases the effectiveness of physical attacks (Hit count and Attack Power), something that BLM was painfully weak at.

Isn't it strange that the spells that benefits RDM more than each of its specialized counterpart are two physical buffs, for the sole meaning of dishing extreme damage with your weapon ?

And, for the record, I did FF I on a solo run with a RDM, and boss strats where "Cast Temper and Haste severals rounds while staying alive, then rip them in a single swing"
No wonder why I see it as a DPS that can heal

Well sure if they actually gave haste and temper to a class. They seem incredibly reluctant to give those types of buffs though, as they could be super potent. I don't see use getting haste at all in this game as there is already several classes that have had haste effects in the past in this game already and there is not haste in sight. Thats a completely different argument though.

There is another argument though... defense minded strats in single player FF were never really that good. You were better off bringing tons of DPS to burn mobs quickly than bringing defense minded parties into the mix.

[Reynhart]

Well sure if they actually gave haste and temper to a class.

Well since initially Haste increased the numbers of hits and Temper temporarilly boost attack power, it's something we already have.
The only difference is that those are, mostly, self targeted only.

There is another argument though... defense minded strats in single player FF were never really that good. You were better off bringing tons of DPS to burn mobs quickly than bringing defense minded parties into the mix.

I don't understand where you're heading with this ? Can you expand, please ?

They really should change the title of this thread to "RDM: Reynhart wants to heal as a DPS"... >w>

That would a little megalomaniac, here...and innacurate, too. Like I said, I'd like RDM to be able to do several things, and I still think that DPS is the role where you can put pretty much whatever you want, as long as your main goal is contributing to killing ennemies.
The strange part upon this is that...I really don't care wether RDM makes its way in the game or not. It's just my view on the job if we eventually have it.

[karateorangutang]

I don't understand where you're heading with this ? Can you expand, please ?

To expand, MMO mechanic recquire a job or class that allow damage to be centralized and a way to mitigate that incoming damage. JRPG's have no such strat. It's more than just keeping hate, its a complete reversal of process. In almost any JRPG it's more beneficial to gear ATK then DEF, because since there is no way to centralize damage any character can be hit. So therefore there is no need for a high defense character. The only reason you took fighter was for melee damage... not defense. So, stringing DEF number units as a reason for something to not be able to mitigate damage seems redundant.

I'm just pointing out that in a MMO setting, where a mage class can equip any kind of armor, that is then usually a defense minded mage. Most mage classes only get robes. In addition to that RDM has a sword and a buckler, something that seems to scream a parry fencer in theme.

Also, we don't have temper. Classes can raise their own attack power, ninja can create a small window of vulnerability. Noone can create a true attack power boost on another character though. Selene has the closest thing to haste... and it's really fairly weak in comparison to any haste ability to appear in the series thus far. Sure though, its kinda there.

I just don't see how it could be a DPS and not the other two roles. It's a conundrum that belies the entire theme of the class itself. Although I believe I'm repeating this point.