Samurai the next tank XD

[MagiusNecros]

BD's dark knight is amazing as well. So many toys revolving around one's HP, as it has always been.

Wasn't gonna bring up DRK since you know BDFF like Explorers just gets the Job right. Instead of the shit in XIV.

Full absorb magic(restore MP....hm!?) to do nothing to you and Minus Strike to inflict the amount of HP missing is awesome.

Not to mention Life or Death being what should have happened in addition to Living Dead's main draw.

And "See you in Hell" would be a neat gimmick if the Dark Knight died. Dealing big damage like say 500 pot if the Dark Knight died to all enemies in the encounter.

I mean Life or Death is awesome(Your physical attack magic attack, physical defense, and magic defense rise 50% for four turns, but you enter the doomed state. The upper limit for P.Atk, M.Atk, P.Def, M.Def is 150%.)

^I mean come on.

[Tanathya]

I mean Life or Death is awesome(Your physical attack magic attack, physical defense, and magic defense rise 50% for four turns, but you enter the doomed state. The upper limit for P.Atk, M.Atk, P.Def, M.Def is 150%.)

And this is a prime example of why DRK has always been *somewhat* beefy, in the form of a certain skill, defense, hp, or armor ratings, because it sacrificed its integrity in a number of ways, by casting Doom on itself, or most commonly, by using its own hp as a source of *raw damage*. And that is why the FFXIV version of DRK doesn't feel right.

[MagiusNecros]

And this is a prime example of why DRK has always been *somewhat* beefy, in the form of a certain skill, defense, hp, or armor ratings, because it sacrificed its integrity in a number of ways, by casting Doom on itself, or most commonly, by using its own hp as a source of *raw damage*. And that is why the FFXIV version of DRK doesn't feel right.

Exactly.

On another note you can compare Paladin and Templar and go whoa as well.

[Tanathya]

Exactly.

On another note you can compare Paladin and Templar and go whoa as well.

I would've totally made Templar the Heavensward tank, even going as far as to branching it off Lancer, and allow a shield to be equipped, then use LNC weapon skills with new effects and animations, such as the Full Thrust combo being the enmity combo, for example, and the Chaos Thrust combo having a fitting effect.

[Reynhart]

I would've totally made Templar the Heavensward tank, even going as far as to branching it off Lancer

Too bad so much people complained about SCH and SMN branching from Arcanist, even though both jobs are very powerful...

[SpookyGhost]

Too bad so much people complained about SCH and SMN branching from Arcanist, even though both jobs are very powerful...

SCH/SMN was a... weird... concept. The biggest problem with it is that you can level SMN to 60 and suddenly you've also got a SCH to 60 - this sounds useful but it also means you were potentially not touching SCH at all for 30 levels and your only experience with it is going to be through the job quests, unless you decide to arbitrarily go through every dungeon again. It's a difficult problem to solve, though, mainly due to the class being tacked on to both jobs. There's probably something they could've done to fix that, though I think making jobs separate from classes altogether is better as it allows them to fully flesh out that job's toolkit without having to work around connecting one class' skill set to two possibly largely different jobs (ie Templar and Dragoon).

[Kaeoni]

The biggest problem with it is that you can level SMN to 60 and suddenly you've also got a SCH to 60

This applies to me. I lack the experience to play Smn proficiently. So many skills to figure out, and all at once, so it's kinda overwhelming. I could fix this by like... Putting the time in. But I would have preferred to level it by itself. Also sharing Stat allocation if you play both is a real pain in the ass. Need to carry around those dealy things all the time to reset if you're switching. Not a huge deal.... but It's annoying and gets old.

[Reynhart]

SCH/SMN was a... weird... concept. The biggest problem with it is that you can level SMN to 60 and suddenly you've also got a SCH to 60 - this sounds useful but it also means you were potentially not touching SCH at all for 30 levels and your only experience with it is going to be through the job quests, unless you decide to arbitrarily go through every dungeon again.

It's not really a "game design" problem. Yes, you can level up a lvl 60 healer without any healing experience thanks to this. But since you could technically level anything by doing only low-level dungeons (Providing the Duty Roulette always give you one) or levequests, you could end with a any lvl 60 job without any real field experience.

Or you could end with a level 60 crafter without crafting anything

I'd say that this is even a good idea to introduce people to healing. Queuing time as a DPS can be a real pain. So you could see this as "Ok, you like SMN ? Well try healing as a SCH and, in the end, you will play your beloved SMN, too".

That's why I posted, loooooooong ago, that all classes should have one DPS job, and one healer/tank job.
Were DRK a DPS branching from Gladiator, everybody would have leveled PLD

[SpookyGhost]

It's not really a "game design" problem. Yes, you can level up a lvl 60 healer without any healing experience thanks to this. But since you could technically level anything by doing only low-level dungeons (Providing the Duty Roulette always give you one) or levequests, you could end with a any lvl 60 job without any real field experience.

That, also, is a game design problem. :P

[Kaeoni]

Snip

This is completely off topic, But I'm not the one who took it there... so don't blame me.

I don't think from a Developers or Players perspective it's a good decision to emulate what happened with Sch and Smn.

From a Developers standpoint it means less time spent playing their game. Less time spent in dungeons perpetuating the leveling process, something developers are constantly trying to keep active due to the influx of new players and old players leveling another class. It's something that constantly needs to be taken into account and monitored, otherwise players will get bored and quit the game before even getting into the really good stuff.


From a Players standpoint it means less time spent learning a class they want to level and this is where bad habits can form, ones people might have avoided had they the experience and time put into the class. In the end, you're going to end up spending just as much time on summoner practicing on a dummy just to get yourself up to par, understanding your rotation and how a class is suppose to function in multiple scenarios. Except you're not given a dungeon and actual scenarios to practice them on. That is, unless like what SpookyGhost said, You systematically go through the dungeons again. Something you would have done in the first place, had your class not been shared with another.

Leveling is suppose to be a learning experience, a gradual introduction to your class in a manageable form. I do agree that if you're looking to play Smn, it's nice to have had the option to be a Sch for faster DF Que times. But that honestly comes with the territory, If Que times are really your main concern then Healing and Tanking Might be a better class for you. Things aren't going to drastically change once you're capped level. I also like the idea of people trying something different for the sake of a parallel class. But I don't think people should avoid playing their desired class, just because Sch has a faster Que up.

I also don't think it's fair to assume the worst possible scenario like always getting a low level dungeon in Roulettes all the way to 60. Not only is that statistically near an impossibility, but it's also not practical and efficient (also super boring, no one can honestly look me in the eye and tell me they don't want to try out their new found abilities).
To be quite frank, it is a game design problem if Devs are not thinking about how they're intuitively teaching players how to play their own game. Whether you'd like to believe it or not, games teach you how to play them, usually without actually saying a single word. Developers generally do a pretty good job at respecting the intelligence level of their community. Some things DO need to be written out for you because they can't accurately be told through experience (things like what Duty finder actually is), especially in an MMO where it's easy to be overwhelmed with information, people new tho the MMO genre are susceptible to that problem. But how you play your class is for the most part up to the player, be it efficiently, or not. I don't believe it's fair to rob anyone of a leveling experience just to save a few hours.

Land Sea Sky for example is from what I can tell a teaching tool to make players more comfortable with Savage and playing their own class effectively. You can focus on doing what your class was designed to do with these set benchmarks. So once you're actually raiding, you have already committed part of the fight to muscle memory, your rotations.

The Question to ask is, Why did they introduce these? If you ask me, it's because they know a large % of people don't even want to attempt Savage. Not because they are incapable or inept. But because the game already does a poor job teaching you how to interact correctly with other human players. A lot of people go through this game riding Duty Finder. And you can do this, right up until the current end of story without speaking a single word to anyone. Much like our actual characters IN the story-line. Kinda ironic actually. Because of that, team work really suffers. Not only do you make fewer friends on the way up to capped level whom you might have formed a static with, you also don't do yourself any favors when the constructive criticism is coming from a random you might just think is being a dick. The Practice dummies won't fix the social problem or team work issue, But it'll help players not be as intimidated and hopefully seek out statics and groups to do the challenging content with a level of confidence they might not have had prior.

TLDR; My opinion is, I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives when it comes to Arcanist splitting off into Smn/Sch. Teaching tools need to be strewn about the game that respect the player. It was a failed experiment I hope they don't repeat in the future.