Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

[Judge_Xero]

Well, this topic sure went astray. If you guys want to continue making suggestions and whatnot, please do that in a different topic

If you are also referring to my post, I'm not making any suggestions in regards to what AST should be, but merely to emphasize where they are lacking in the current meta. Which is kind of on topic as to why AST can't be balanced in it's current form as it just doesn't have the level of synergy that a WHM/SCH composition has.

The Card Mechanic of AST is in itself impossible to balance due to being RNG of nature and relying so heavily on Party performance. Sure the buffs are nice, but only when "needed" and it's not like there is 60s between phases where AST has enough time to draw the exact card they need.

AST will never be a good class if it's stances do not mesh well with AST/SCH, AST/WHM and while it is completely under-tuned in Party DPS utility due to being balanced around perfect RNG for it's Cards.

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Since it is true that AST is the weakest healer in any situation other than solo healing (where co-healer synergy and DPS are not as much of a concern), there shouldn't be an issue in tossing around ideas of whether any small changes could significantly improve AST as the pretense of the thread kind of points to disproving whether it "can" be balanced.

[Cleftobismal]

I don't play Astrologian but after reading this, I'd have to agree the best thing S.E can do is add new skills for the class. Perhaps a system where they receive certain buffs or effects if such and such class is in the party. That would make Ast unique in its own and hopefully not overwhelming.


IE: Oh in a 4 man dg I'd like to be with a Paladin because when I get hit by something, I have a 5% proc chance to parry one move. Or with a warrior whenever I get hit by something, I have a 5% proc chance to recover 15% of the attacks damage as hp.

Or in a 8 man raid, such and such spell allows me to increase my healing potency slightly by 4% when partied with a whm but with a sch my mana regen is slightly up by xyz%.



(It doesn't have to be like that. ^) Nothing too special but atleast gives something to the class on rare occasions. Not something to rely on but something that band-aids the class.

[Vlady]

Giving astrologians a unique ability based on which tank we are healing is not a good idea. The astrologian is in a very strong situation and is on par with the 3 other jobs. Anything more then just tweaks at this moment could undermine the other jobs. If they buff the astrologian or give them any strong unique abilities then they should be scaled back in healing since they are on par with the white mage. The only thing the white mage has is it is suppose to be the king of pure healing and the astro can surpass it now on single target healing and burst healing with synastry.

If you are also referring to my post, I'm not making any suggestions in regards to what AST should be, but merely to emphasize where they are lacking in the current meta. Which is kind of on topic as to why AST can't be balanced in it's current form as it just doesn't have the level of synergy that a WHM/SCH composition has.

The Card Mechanic of AST is in itself impossible to balance due to being RNG of nature and relying so heavily on Party performance. Sure the buffs are nice, but only when "needed" and it's not like there is 60s between phases where AST has enough time to draw the exact card they need.

AST will never be a good class if it's stances do not mesh well with AST/SCH, AST/WHM and while it is completely under-tuned in Party DPS utility due to being balanced around perfect RNG for it's Cards.

----------------------------------------------------

Since it is true that AST is the weakest healer in any situation other than solo healing (where co-healer synergy and DPS are not as much of a concern), there shouldn't be an issue in tossing around ideas of whether any small changes could significantly improve AST as the pretense of the thread kind of points to disproving whether it "can" be balanced.

The astro meshes well with white mage/astro and scholar/astro. It is not a perfect situation but its not because astro/white mage is undertuned for certain raids. It is raids were not designed around having that level of pure healing output. Hopefully Midas changes that making them a more viable pairing.

[Cleftobismal]

I'm speaking in general, rather the mechanic is based on what classes you are partied with or what single class in the party you will target for whatever the benefit is. Something like this would indeed give a chance to make your point on AST/WHM being "tuned" for the raid. Most likely we will receive new skills on the next level cap, I would prefer AST receives a new mechanic rather than just raw healing or dps.

[Vlady]

I agree with that. I still hope that astro gets nocturnal turned into a new cleric stance with damage dealt healing like disc priest in wow. Just don't let it stack with normal cleric stance.

[Starbirth]

I wasn't going to post but as a iLv 200 Astro I do feel like I have a voice on this. I read the OP and I don't really see the issue. I use nocturnal 99% of the time. The 1% being 8man content with a Scholar. Nocturnal gives me so much more freedom to DPS.

I think people need to be more specific in their issues with the class.

Im an i203 Ast and I find Nocturnal 99% useless vs Diurnal. The shields just cannot compete with the regens in terms of overall potency and the regens will stack with whm ones while Ast shields do not with Sch.

[NamoNanamo]

Im an i203 Ast and I find Nocturnal 99% useless vs Diurnal. The shields just cannot compete with the regens in terms of overall potency and the regens will stack with whm ones while Ast shields do not with Sch.

"We" don't care about your Ilvl. It's not always useless vs Diurnal cause it will depend if you are with whm/Ast/Sch.
And you don't get how powerful getting shield is. It's not about the overall potency, it's about the "increase" HP you give to someone that let him survive. So yes, the shield can compete against regens.

To be clear: A3s, while Living Liquid is casting his Cascade, you are happy to get one shield. Same thing against high tankbuster.

Don't be so extrem with your opinion.

[Triston]

I've always wondered why people try to cram AST into SCH's slot when going WHM/AST. AST and WHM have comparable main healing, and WHM's DPS is objectively better than AST. Although I haven't put it in practice, why is it very seldom raised the proposition that AST be the primary healer in BOTH compositions, and have WHM fill the "support healer" role?

Accuracy is an issue, and will need to be addressed by SE, but WHM's DPS rotation is better in all ways than AST. AST can use Ewers to supplement WHM's mp, (though not as well as SCH does, which is itself an issue that needs be addressed) and WHM can use Regens as their version of fairy heals to keep up sustain while in Cleric Stance. Meanwhile Nocturnal AST can use shields more liberally than SCH does (both are inefficient, but Aspected Benefic I *think* is more efficient than Adloquium) and cards to support the raid. This I've always thought would be superior to Noct AST trying to copy SCH and falling short on all three of DPS/mana/healing, but I don't have enough experience to see where having Noct AST primary heal in an AST/WHM combo could be worse.

Is it just that WHMs are so accustomed to being the main healer they find it unthinkable to play the DPS-healer role?

[Triston]

In a progression raid you need shields, especially in A3 and A4 where those shields are often the deciding line on whether Cascade or Mortal Revolution starts killing people. That, and the WHM/SCH dynamic just works so WELL. They pair so well together, so it's easy to expect an AST to flop into the missing role's shoes.

On a fight with heavy bleed effects and constant dot damage then WHM/AST might actually be preferrable by leaps and bounds, but we haven't seen that in a raid yet--the closest would probably be Odin or the 3rd boss in Void Ark. However so long as tank busters BUST and raid-wide booms BOOM then you are going to want to those shields.

Shields are also great because they give a purpose to overhealing, which mitigates healer redundancy. Can't ignore that.

In the scenario to which I am referring, you would still have shields. You would bring Noct AST as the primary healer and WHM as the DPS-healer.
I wasn't comparing WHM/SCH to WHM/AST; SCH is too perfectly tuned for the DPS-healer role: better MP management, fewer accuracy issues, higher DPS, better offhealing while in Cleric Stance. The other two healers can't compete with it in the slightest, which is on SE to do something about.
I was comparing WHM/AST to AST/WHM. Nocturnal AST is required because shields are necessary as you said. My assertion was that I think WHM is a better DPS-healer than AST is, and therefore in a WHM/AST comp Noct AST should be the main healer, but in most discussions I see, it is always assumed that in a WHM/AST comp AST is the backup healer.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

Well, there are some issues and here are some of them:
Who will be doing the AoE healing for hits big enough that it will take 2 helios or 1 medica II?
Nocturnal sect as a main healer is practically a white mage without HoTs. Thus no form of sustained healing as well as mp efficiency issues
Same accuracy "benefits" scholar had applies to Astrologian

Frankly, putting white mage in the supportive healer seat doesn't really solve anything. Neither have high or even decent affinity towards that role. It's a matter of picking your own poison as there's a lack of better.