Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

[Kyros]

I am well aware that these are due to DPS stances. That means little to me and my argument though. I do not believe a Tank should be able to put out 80% of a DPS's numbers while in a DPS stance with DPS accessories.

The problem is that you have no argument other than "My opinion". It is impractical, goes against the thematic of the game, and means taking a step-back in many aspects of the game. You have yet to provide a reason why your opinion should be valid.

Also, clearly you haven't done any tanking, or have a poor grasping of content design, further undermining the validity of your opinion. SE can't make "Tanking-only" content all the time. When your average party is two tanks, one of them is functionally going to become a DPS at some point. When you don't, and your tank is worthless, you'll end up with things like Titan Back in the day (Where the second tank was forgone for an extra DPS).

Look at Bard, for example. It's a Support and a DPS. Statics take a BRD because of its support abilities, limited as they are. Statics take Offtanks for the things a MT can't handle. But clearly, these are very isolated events, a BRD is not always singing, nor a OT is always tanking. They are relegated to DPS's when they are doing neither of these. Having the BRD do half it's DPS without adding anything just because "It's a support, it shouldn't be doing what a DPS does" sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it? Same goes to tanking.

Contrary to what you might think, most people don't like to be dead-weights. Your way of thinking basically translates to: "if you don't get to be the MT, well sucks to be you" and also "Good luck doing open-world content". You'll see players fighting over who gets to MT because being an OT in your world would basically mean being "the useless".

[Instrumentality]

Contrary to what you might think, most people don't like to be dead-weights. Your way of thinking basically translates to: "if you don't get to be the MT, well sucks to be you" and also "Good luck doing open-world content". You'll see players fighting over who gets to MT because being an OT in your world would basically mean being "the useless".

This already happened in the game once in Second Coil, and the developers hated it. (Turn 8 and 9.)

[Zumi]

In other MMOs tanks do around 20%-25% of the damage of what a DPS can do so their damage is really irrelevant. FFXIV is the first MMO I seen where tanks actually can do a lot of damage but that was achieved with using STR acc which the devs didn't plan for. If you were full fending and tank stance it actually is about the same as other mmos with that 25% of what a dps can do.

[Instrumentality]

In other MMOs tanks do around 20%-25% of the damage of what a DPS can do so their damage is really irrelevant. FFXIV is the first MMO I seen where tanks actually can do a lot of damage but that was achieved with using STR acc which the devs didn't plan for. If you were full fending and tank stance it actually is about the same as other mmos with that 25% of what a dps can do.

What MMO is this?

All of the MMOs I've ever played (from EverQuest 1 in 2000 to Lineage 2 to WoW to SWTOR to tons of other no names kmmos) this has never been true?

[Kyros]

In other MMOs tanks do around 20%-25% of the damage of what a DPS can do so their damage is really irrelevant. FFXIV is the first MMO I seen where tanks actually can do a lot of damage but that was achieved with using STR acc which the devs didn't plan for. If you were full fending and tank stance it actually is about the same as other mmos with that 25% of what a dps can do.

Not even remotely close. Even at full VIT, a tank in his defensive stance can do well over 50% what a DPS would. If you are doing 25% of a DPS, you should really consult a guide. Heck, if you're doing 25% of a DPS's damage, you're not technically tanking, since it'd be impossible to keep hate with those numbers.

[Kaurie]

My argument is precisely that it is my opinion, as it is your arguments as well. We both have our opinions. Someone doing 600-800 DPS is not a dead weight in my personal opinion. (again opinion).

I've done tanking in this game in a raiding context as well as other, but I personally find tanking to be rather boring. I definitely don't have the 'sucks to be you' attitude towards OT, but more that I think the content needs to be tuned to have the OT do something other than DPS. This could be simple, such as picking up adds, or more complex mechanics.

I also don't see how if a healer can do Open world content right now pulling less than what I am proposing for tanks, then why would a tank not be able to do open world content.

Further, as I mentioned, I'd like specs and traits added. In this sense, there would be specs that healers and tanks could use in open world with a more DPS focus, and swap to tank/healer focus for grouped content. If one was to argue that jobs fulfill this role, then I don't see why it is unreasonable to assume someone could swap to a DPS job for open world content (such as beast tribe quests). I understand you need to level a DPS job up, which is in part why I'd rather just have specs added (among many other reasons).

The main reasoning behind my opinion on tank damage being too high and needing scaled back is that there seems to be little reason to be a DPS. If the average Ninja pulls only 10 DPS higher than the average warrior (OK 50th percentile, as we don't have averages) on Oppressor, why bring a NIN over a WAR? Why not bring another WAR who can be fully DPS and have way more armor and mitigation to survive Prey making the healers job easier and allowing the healer to DPS more? I don't think the numbers should be so similar. Perhaps 40-50% of a DPS is too steep, but as it is now, it's too steep in the other direction. Perhaps a middle ground would be more appropriate.

That is my reasoning, as you asked for it, but ultimately it's just that I prefer clear cut roles.

One last thing, you mentioned a few times about WAR being thematically high on DPS. Is this due to the job quests, or a final fantasy thing or something else? I don't have a lot of final fantasy background, but if we are talking about this game, thematically is whatever the developers decide to do.

[Instrumentality]

My argument is precisely that it is my opinion, as it is your arguments as well. We both have our opinions. Someone doing 600-800 DPS is not a dead weight in my personal opinion. (again opinion).

At the 50th percentile on fflogs a tank doing 50% of the dps of a ninja (the lowest dps at that range) would be doing 475 dps or less.

I've done tanking in this game in a raiding context as well as other, but I personally find tanking to be rather boring. I definitely don't have the 'sucks to be you' attitude towards OT, but more that I think the content needs to be tuned to have the OT do something other than DPS. This could be simple, such as picking up adds, or more complex mechanics.

Off tanks already do all of that in this game.

I also don't see how if a healer can do Open world content right now pulling less than what I am proposing for tanks, of how tank would not be able to do open world content.

Further, as I mentioned, I'd like specs and traits added. In this sense, there would be specs that healers and tanks could use in open world with a more DPS focus, and swap to tank/healer focus for grouped content. If one was to argue that jobs fulfill this role, then I don't see why it is unreasonable to assume someone could swap to a DPS job for open world content (such as beast tribe quests). I understand you need to level a DPS job up, which is in part why I'd rather just have specs added (among many other reasons).

Just because healers 'can' do something does not mean it is an enjoyable experience.

Also I think specs could be cool as long as it was mostly flavor. Introducing more ways for average players to make bad decisions about gearing and playstyle is worth a bit of caution, but it can be done correctly, I think?

The main reasoning behind my opinion on tank damage being too high and needing scaled back is that there seems to be little reason to be a DPS. If the average Ninja pulls only 10 DPS higher than the average warrior (OK 50th percentile, as we don't have averages) on Oppressor, why bring a NIN over a WAR? Why not bring another WAR who can be fully DPS and have way more armor and mitigation to survive Prey making the healers job easier and allowing the healer to DPS more? I don't think the numbers should be so similar. Perhaps 40-50% of a DPS is too steep, but as it is now, it's too steep in the other direction. Perhaps a middle ground would be more appropriate.

Maybe instead of destroying tank dps the developers could look into what causes ninja dps to dramatically fall off at average skill level?

Because good players (players in the 75th percentile or above) have no problem destroying tanks in dps as ninjas?

That is my reasoning, as you asked for it, but ultimately it's just that I prefer clear cut roles.

One last thing, you mentioned a few times about WAR being thematically high on DPS. Is this due to the job quests, or a final fantasy thing or something else? I don't have a lot of final fantasy background, but if we are talking about this game, thematically is whatever the developers decide to do.

Warriors themantically are the 'out of control' tanks. Berserk, Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, Maim, Inner Beast, Unchained. Just look at their skill names? Everything about them says "I am in your face and going to smash you until you die".

[Alahra]

The problem is that you have no argument other than "My opinion". It is impractical, goes against the thematic of the game, and means taking a step-back in many aspects of the game. You have yet to provide a reason why your opinion should be valid.

That's...because the kind of game they want to play (i.e., enjoy) is an opinion. There are a number of reasons they might have that opinion. Perhaps they're an MMO vet, having gotten into the genre in a time when tanks didn't do damage in most MMOs. Maybe they think high tank and healer damage fosters an environment in which not enough responsibility for DPS checks is on the actual DPS. Maybe they prefer a game with more codified, structured roles: after all, only the tanks have the responsibility of tanking, and only the healers have the responsibility of healing (for the most part, outside of a small fraction of self-healing abilities)—perhaps they would prefer that DPS are the ones largely responsible for DPS? Perhaps they want to see a game with more fights that don't just boil down to "do as much DPS as possible," which, unfortunately, is what most fights in this game are about right now.

This is a game. People don't have to justify what they find fun to you, at least, not the last time I checked. Personally, I think a lot of what Kaurie's asking for could in fact work in FFXIV, if it were implemented gradually over the next few years. With respect to the topic of the thread itself: lowering tank damage would work just fine if it was tied to tank stance entirely—that way when it came time for the tank to OT or to solo stuff for quests, they'd put on their DPS stance and go to town, just like healers already do with Cleric Stance. An OT is essentially a DPS, afterall, when they aren't MTing, so having comparable numbers to a low-end DPS isn't unrealistic—but the current state of the game, in which MTs also do that kind of damage, is a bit excessive and it does to some degree corrode the barriers between the roles in the trinity.

If tanks should be able to do 85% of a DPS's output, I want to be able to tank 85% as well as a tank does (can I have Utsusemi back, please?) or heal 85% as well as a healer on my BLM or BRD. It's only fair, right?

Because good players (players in the 75th percentile or above) have no problem destroying tanks in dps as ninjas?

I'm not sure I would describe what NINs are doing above the 75th percentile as "destroying" tanks (by which I mean WAR and DRK—we all know PLD's DPS isn't of concern here).

For Oppressor, since that was the fight in use before, (http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#class=Any&boss=18), NIN clocks in at 1185.6, while WAR clocks in at 1026.2—85% of the NIN's damage. DRK is at 931.5, which is 78% of the NIN—lower, but not really being "destroyed."

Even at the 99th percentile (http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#c...=18&dataset=99), the difference is similar, and in fact, more in favor of the tanks: WAR does 1320 to NIN's 1478.4. At that level, the WAR is doing 89% of the NIN's DPS. DRK is at 1253.8, or 84% of NIN's output.

On the other fights, WAR and DRK are hitting 80-84% of NIN's DPS which is, again, hardly being "destroyed," especially when you again remember that alot of these numbers are while tanking. Yes, that ultimately comes down to encounter design, but class balance doesn't exist in a vacuum, we have to take the encounters into consideration when discussing it. If we didn't, something like BRD or MCH would be obviously underpowered because their utility is only used in a very small subset of the game's content (as mentioned, I do think they need some love, but the point still stands, I think).

Warriors themantically are the 'out of control' tanks. Berserk, Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, Maim, Inner Beast, Unchained. Just look at their skill names? Everything about them says "I am in your face and going to smash you until you die".

A lot of those skill names were holdovers from when WARs were essentially a DPS with some off-tanking ability in the original XIV (sort of like DRGs now). Just for context.

[Kaurie]

At the 50th percentile on fflogs a tank doing 50% of the dps of a ninja (the lowest dps at that range) would be doing 475 dps or less.

ah thanks for your reply. The note on 600-800 was more of a note on good tanks rather than average tanks. I think a good tank should cap near 800 not 1400.

Off tanks already do all of that in this game.

I realize off tanks do grab adds in this game, am not sure if that was meant to argue what I said or just reinforce it? That said, I think there needs to be more of that. I'd also like to see some more innovation on mechanics for the off-tank as well as for all roles.

Just because healers 'can' do something does not mean it is an enjoyable experience.

Healers can do it, tanks would have higher damage, tanks can do it. He said tanks would not be able to do open world content, this counters that.

Also I think specs could be cool as long as it was mostly flavor. Introducing more ways for average players to make bad decisions about gearing and playstyle is worth a bit of caution, but it can be done correctly, I think?

I'd like to see traits which fundamentally change how you play. For example, one from Guild Wars II that I really liked was the ability to treat yourself as an illusion as a mesmer. Plenty of skills were based off your number of illusions, and you could have max 3, but with this trait you had 4. Additionally, you had skills were you could make all of your illusions explode, the more you had the more damage it dealt. This meant you could explode yourself to cause damage around you, and you could increase the damage of your illusions. That's the TLDR, hope it was clear as I think I recall you said you never played GW2. A similar trait in this game could be something like, Fester treats Shadowflare as a dot - so you'd get 400 potency vs 300 on that attack if you traited for it. Anyway, no, I'd rather game-changing traits vs flavour traits. I do agree with you that it should be done with caution.

Maybe instead of destroying tank dps the developers could look into what causes ninja dps to dramatically fall off at average skill level?

Because good players (players in the 75th percentile or above) have no problem destroying tanks in dps as ninjas?

I wouldn't say that Ninja's destroy WAR dps at 75% percentile, it a total of 70 DPS higher.

Warriors themantically are the 'out of control' tanks. Berserk, Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, Maim, Inner Beast, Unchained. Just look at their skill names? Everything about them says "I am in your face and going to smash you until you die".

Oh I see so it's the skill names. Thanks

[DGladius]

Warriors themantically are the 'out of control' tanks. Berserk, Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, Maim, Inner Beast, Unchained. Just look at their skill names? Everything about them says "I am in your face and going to smash you until you die".

Don't forget that they can only use and unleash Fell Cleaves or Decimate when they become Uncontrollable!