Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Well, this topic sure went astray. If you guys want to continue making suggestions and whatnot, please do that in a different topic

[Velox]

Then remove the AS+ for Diurnal and make it -MP% to make spells cheaper

All of AST's healing spells cost less MP than the other two healers by default even though they have the same base potency as WHM's versions.

You're basically asking for WHM with infinite MP like SCH with this suggestion. It would render WHM obsolete.

[Lilith_Merquise]

Well, this topic sure went astray. If you guys want to continue making suggestions and whatnot, please do that in a different topic

We're talking about Sects and you pose that they are not able to be balanced, we are suggesting ideas that may not make them balanced but will at least give a reason and situation for each sect. Therefore it is consistent with the topic. Unless we're all just supposed to read that novel you posted, nod our heads and state "Yes, this job is screwed." In which case I recommend you state in your post that this isn't a discussion topic as much as it's an affirm/deny my point.

All of AST's healing spells cost less MP than the other two healers by default even though they have the same base potency as WHM's versions.

You're basically asking for WHM with infinite MP like SCH with this suggestion. It would render WHM obsolete.

A tad dramatic don't you think? Yes our heals are "SLIGHTLY" cheaper in MP (unless it's Helios which is equal) but also SE and it's infinite wisdom thinks that if we heal like a WHM or a SCH then we're stealing their job, which is why we heal for less and at times faster but with less punch. Cool less mp, less cure, MAYBE faster cast times! I have no problem with that, but what I'm stating is making it so that you can heal cheap in AoE (less cure potency then WHM AoE) for cheaper when under the specific stance for AoE healing.

WHM gets free cures with its traits and SCH has great MP regeneration and essentially a 2nd unmanned hand for healing that dons't cost anything. I hardly see why knocking off more MP% for AoE (again something we have equal cost in with WHM/SCH) making it punishing to heal AoE in Nocturnal but beneficial in Diurnal. This would hardly make a class as beastly as WHM "obsolete" and if anything is making a trash fire into a Forest Fire.

[Ghishlain]

@lilith

Not sure why you think diurnal AST has weaker cures.

Benefic = cure w/ 20% less cost
Benefic II = cure II w/ 10% less cost
Helios = medica w/ 10% less cost
ED = Tetra
Aspect Helios has about same pot/MP as Medica II
Aspected Benefic generates more potency in less time than Regen

So, please elaborate because I don't see AST having weaker heals than WHM. Different, yes, but not weaker.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

We're talking about Sects and you pose that they are not able to be balanced, we are suggesting ideas that may not make them balanced but will at least give a reason and situation for each sect. Therefore it is consistent with the topic. Unless we're all just supposed to read that novel you posted, nod our heads and state "Yes, this job is screwed." In which case I recommend you state in your post that this isn't a discussion topic as much as it's an affirm/deny my point.

Astrologian is impossible to balance as it is. As for why, you'll just have to read the initial post as I will not repeat it here. I never intended this to be any form of "suggest this to fix Astrologian" topic. It was intended to prevent more nonsensical topics related to that. Or rather; What 95% of all Astrologian topics in the past 2 months are about. For example, your particular "contribution" in this topic:

Frankly I think they just need to bump up the shield strength or make it so it gives resistanc/armor + for as long as its in effect like how our bubble does that and regen. Then remove the AS+ for Diurnal and make it -MP% to make spells cheaper. Then make it so you can stance dance em, heck even give it a fairly long CD if you want, don't care, but making it so Diurnal is for AoE an Nocturnal is for maximum healing on a tank would make the class leaps and bounds better then what it is now.

I've pointed it out what the issues are and why Nocturnal sect can never fulfill it's intended, role. So explain to me how this "suggestion" can solve all the issues I've pointed out that prevents Nocturnal Sect be as good as Diurnal Sect for it's intended role.
Bump up the shield strength or increased resistance/armor? MP sustainability as well as sustain healing is still an issue.
Cost reduction in diurnal? Nocturnal Sect is the one with self sustain problems
Stance dance? Frankly, this is not even the answer. Ghishlain mentioned something about healing paradigm and this would simply destroy it. This is the sort of "fix" that would cause the least amount of collateral damage, however. But whether it's definitely not the kind of "fix" Astrologian would need. If stance dancing was a thing, might as well integrate the entire Diurnal Kit into the aspected abilities and make Nocturnal Sect similar to Grit; switch on/switch off.

Astrologian, or more specifically Nocturnal Sect, cannot be tooled to be good for it's intended role as Diurnal Sect is right now. Frankly, I don't even see why this would be such an issue. The fact aside that the Astrologian kit prevents itself to have balanced kits, the player base bias will always lean towards one or the other. There are plenty of "oh please fix Nocturnal sect" topics out there. If you feel the urge to make more suggestions, please go to those posts. Unless you can think of a "solution" to make Nocturnal Sect as good as Diurnal Sect for it's intended role without:
More homogenization
More flat potency increases
More identity ironing
Additions to the stratagem simply for the sake of it without solving any of the mentioned problems
Without the requirement of reworking the job. After all, the topic is about Astrologian being unable to balance both sects as it is

[Lilith_Merquise]

@lilith

Not sure why you think diurnal AST has weaker cures.

Benefic = cure w/ 20% less cost
Benefic II = cure II w/ 10% less cost
Helios = medica w/ 10% less cost
ED = Tetra
Aspect Helios has about same pot/MP as Medica II
Aspected Benefic generates more potency in less time than Regen

So, please elaborate because I don't see AST having weaker heals than WHM. Different, yes, but not weaker.

No problem, so with Medica you also have to consider proc'n "Enhanced Medica" which is a 50% cost for the next Medica, and Aspected Helios the cure potency from the regen granted is less then the Medica II which is why it weaker for it's cost. Also I stated A.B > Regen in another thread thinking that Aspected benefic was better then Regen, but was corrected. While the Initial burst of Healing is stronger for AST, the regen is weaker and lasts less which makes up and surpasses the HP gained from the initial burst.

Aspected Benefic: 190 potency + 140 X 6 ticks = 1030 potency
Regen = 150 X 7 ticks = 1050 potency

Regen wins, hands down. Especially because Synastry only affects the initial hit with its extra 40% bonus, 840 potency is only buffed by 20% while Regen's entire duration is buffed (more constantly, too, 60s CD vs 90s CD) by Divine Seal's 30%.

Also being that I think the sect should focus more on AoE healing while Noct should be more Heavy Individual healing the individual heals are not what I'm calling into question (Benefic / E.D.).

[Lilith_Merquise]

@Lyrica_Ashtine, I get what you're stating, that basically SCH can DPS and heal in Clerics due to an additional helper, where as AST can mitigate but will have to keep pumping out the shield which will mean much more flip flopping in stance then the SCH would have to. That's true, that's again why I feel an increased shield really wouldn't change much and while it is a simple answer to say "At least we did something" more of what I'm leaning towards is keeping the shield as is now, and augmenting the ability to simply apply a (level/mind) scaling Def and M.Def or even resistance up that is noticeable.

This way sure, you won't keep people topped, but if you can make a 150 Potency AoE hit more like a 50 potency ability for as long as the shield is up (would go away when the shield HP is gone) then it can be more viable for AST to use stance dance as a "Cure Bomb Stance" while still having the ability to DPS and not flip out of it as soon as recast is up. This isn't asking for an overhaul of the kit and is operating in it's current form, just simply giving the shield additional purpose while still leaving SCH it's uniqueness (not adding a floating moon to cure players).

[Ghishlain]

No problem, so with Medica you also have to consider proc'n "Enhanced Medica" which is a 50% cost for the next Medica, and Aspected Helios the cure potency from the regen granted is less then the Medica II which is why it weaker for it's cost. Also I stated A.B > Regen in another thread thinking that Aspected benefic was better then Regen, but was corrected. While the Initial burst of Healing is stronger for AST, the regen is weaker and lasts less which makes up and surpasses the HP gained from the initial burst.

Mmm, well, allow me to respond piece by piece.

Medica

Even with Enhanced Medica, Medica still averages approximately 1,115 MP per cast versus Helios 1,061 MP per cast

Mathy bits spoiled

20% chance for half MP cost Medica = 619 MP Medica every five casts.

( 619MP * 0.2 + 1,238MP * 0.8 ) = 124MP + 991MP = 1,115MP

So, Helios is still better and it doesn't change the fact that Helios isn't weaker in potency/cast than Medica is.

Medica II

Agreed that Aspected Helios is weaker than Medica II but that is one aspect of AST that is weaker than WHM, and not the entire kit.

Regen vs Aspected Benefic

The assessment isn't technically wrong but I don't feel it does Aspected Benefic justice and here's why:

If you consider per GCD

Regen = 1,050 Potency
Aspected Benefic = 1,030 Potency

Regen is therefore better on a per GCD basis

If you consider over a period of time

Aspected Benefic = 1,030 potency over 18 seconds
Regen = 900 potency over 18 seconds

Aspected Benefic provides more output sooner than Regen, therefore Aspected Benefic is more potent over the same period of time when you consider 100% up time on HoTs.

They both are HoTs but are a bit different.

Regen = more MP efficient
Aspected Benefic = more potent

Take from that what you will. Each player should play to the strengths of each kit as best as they can.

=====

Overall though, it doesn't change the fact that the WHM kit isn't that much more powerful than the Diurnal AST kit and in my opinion they now share an eerily similar power level.

[Vlady]

Direct comparisons to white mage have been done to death. Both healers are close enough in relative healing strength it is a waste of time when doesn't answer what se wants from the job. Fill the role for pure healing along side of white mage til 4.0 or do they intend to tweak nocturnal.

[Nathair]

If AST were to act as a Main Healer even in Noct, I don't think there would me that much of a problem.
I never took WHM nor AST in savage yet, so I don't pretend to be 100& right, but as I see it the fairy can constantly heal for an average of 1700 HP (2400 if roused), ignoring the crits, no MND party buff, i209.
A similar effect can be obtained with WHM and D.AST HoT, but not by N. AST.

I may be pretty simple-minded about this, and plain wrong, but wouldn't N.AST not act as SCH, but actually main heal, solve the problem?

Mind you: I do think Noct Sect is not as good as its counter-part, and I'm only talking about "superficially" solving the issue, as far as solving without reworking the job/buffing Noct would go.