The Illusion of Choice

[Alahra]

Open your eyes a little and look at the FFXIV job system from a different angle.

This is true to an extent, but just about every MMO has more than one class option for a particular role, with additional choices layered on top of that. While FFXIV is somewhat unique in allowing the leveling of multiple jobs on one character, its predecessor, FFXI still had player choice added to it (through Merit Points, though also through a wider variety of available gear), despite having the same basic job system. FFXI actually just recently added another customization system for each job, in fact (the newer Job Points, which are similar to but distinct from Merit Points).

The game does already have elements of choice, but they are not particularly novel or engaging when compared to other MMOs. It's just a matter of finding ways that customization can be added without undermining game balance, which is something that needs to be done carefully—something I admit even if I'm definitely in the pro-customization camp.

[Izsha]

Some people don't seem to understand.. the Job IS the equivalent of a talent tree build.

You roll 'tank'. But you want to do a lot of dps, at the sacrifice of defense. You choose the WAR build. You want lots of defense at a cost of dps? PLD. A balance/hybrid between the two? DRK build.

It really couldn't be more obvious that what you 'want'... already exists, and has existed since patch 1.18...

Open your eyes a little and look at the FFXIV job system from a different angle.

I don't know how people don't seem the get this. "I've played other mmos woth different specs and talent trees and it worked". Those games are like wow, diablo, etc. 1 class per avatar/toon. So you can make a char, level pld, and swap between healer spec pld, tank spec pld, and dps spec pld. And that is the only things that toon will EVER be. If pld was just a tank and you had to create an entirely new toon, level through MSQ, unlock every area/dungeon again, earn reputation all over and all that crap it would suck. So they give each class specs to be flexible without starting over.

11 and 14 don't have pld with tank, dps, and heal specs. They just let you play 3 tabk specs (war. Pld, drk), 3 heal specs (ast, whm, sch), a burst mage, a dot/pet mage, a ranged support spec, a ranged pet support spec, etc, etc all on 1 toon.

So quit whining that pld doesn't have a healer spec. You have 3 healer specs. They have a green icon. Go play them.

Jobs serve the function of specs in ffxi and ffxiv.

WE ALREADY HAVE SPECS. They just have a different name.

[Alahra]

WE ALREADY HAVE SPECS. They just have a different name.

No, we don't. Nothing in those other games prevents you from *also* playing every class (unless there are character limits, but those are rare). Being able to play the other classes in, say, WoW, gives you just as much customization as we currently have in FFXIV, even before you consider the inclusion of talents and specializations.

And as mentioned, FFXI also has customization, despite also letting you play every class on one character.

[Izsha]

No, we don't. Nothing in those other games prevents you from *also* playing every class (unless there are character limits, but those are rare). Being able to play the other classes in, say, WoW, gives you just as much customization as we currently have in FFXIV, even before you consider the inclusion of talents and specializations.

And as mentioned, FFXI also has customization, despite also letting you play every class on one character.

Did you miss the part where you have to start from scratch to play a new class in other games? if course because it doesn't support your idea. Having to repeat all the banal "setup" stuff over and over is a big investment just to play another spec. That is why games like wow even have specs so that you can still try different playstyle and roles without repeating all that. Jobs in 14 serve that function of changing roles and playstyle without starting 9ver. Even in wow there are different gear sets for each jobs specs so you still need to collect gear for a new role just as a mnk needs to get gear to play a tank here.

And ffxi having customization is the paramount example of the illusion of choice idea. You could gear up to he a xbow thf if you thought it was cool. But it's performance was poor so it wasn't a thing. Pvp, as with most every game is the only place you can really do things outside the box of a job. PvE is forever trapped in the illusion. You could spend a kingdom for a kclub melee whm. You know what you could do with that? Solo trash mobs and pvp. You want to be a healer drg with your wyvern? Works on solo trash and pvp. Want to be a dps pld? Solo trash ad pvp.

You can do whatever you want on trash solo content and pvp. You can't for content that has a smidgen of difficulty.

[Alahra]

Did you miss the part where you have to start from scratch to play a new class in other games?

Of course I didn't, why are you talking to me like I'm an idiot?

I didn't bring it up because it's not especially difficult to level an alt in, say, WoW. You can send your characters gear and money, and they even have Bind on Account Heirloom gear that makes it easier to level alt classes. Yes, not everything carries over—but not everything carries over in FFXIV, either. In WoW, you can get weekly currencies for all of your classes, so you can actually have multiple classes with the highest level of gear if you so choose—you can't do that in FFXIV because you're limited to spending tomestones and getting drops from locked out content on one class per week.

Yes, you have to start from scratch to a degree if you level a new class in another game, but it still doesn't make the choices we have in FFXIV particularly engaging compared to other games, which do let you play other classes (even if it's slightly more difficult to do so) and they have customization options on top of that.

As for FFXI, I wasn't talking so much about weapon choice so much as I was gear choices (there were actually reasons to use a variety of pieces for various things) but more than that I was talking about the post-level cap customization in Merit and Job Points. Merit Points and Job points are similar in many ways to talent point systems in other games. There were elements of choice in those systems that we don't have here despite the job system being largely the same.

[WellFooled]

Some people don't seem to understand.. the Job IS the equivalent of a talent tree build.

You roll 'tank'. But you want to do a lot of dps, at the sacrifice of defense. You choose the WAR build. You want lots of defense at a cost of dps? PLD. A balance/hybrid between the two? DRK build.

Let's use WoW as an example, because it's well known, vs. FFXIV.

There are 13 battle jobs in FFXIV. There are 11 classes in WoW at last count. On the surface, you might think FFXIV has more options than WoW, but each of those 11 classes in WoW have three vastly different ways to play them, which really bring the number of classes up to 33.

In FFXIV all races are identical in terms of gameplay. The stat differences are so minor as to be nonexistant. In WoW there are 13 races with vastly different stats, unique traits, unique abilities that can only be found with that race.

With just these two choices (race and class) the total possible gameplay builds for FFXIV are 13 (because again, race doesn't effect your gameplay in any significant way. It is a cosmetic choice only). The total possible gameplay builds WoW are 429.

WoW also has a talent system that, every 15 levels lets you pick between one of three talents which can change how your abilities work significantly. There are 7 layers of these choices, each with three options. Let's just assume there was only one layer. That brings the possible gameplay builds for WoW up to 1287. Once you factor in all 7 layers? 938,223 different gameplay builds.

So FFXIV has 13 different ways to Battle and WoW has almost 1,000,000. (Now mind you, if my math is wrong I wouldn't be surprised. Feel free to chime in if it is. I never was very good at balancing the numbers.) Of course WoW also has more interesting stats on its gear and abilities and procs while FFXIV gear has stats so simple I barely even take them into account.

Jobs are a choice yes, but you can't compare that one choice in gameplay to what is offered by other MMOs.

[Duuude007]

Let's use WoW as an example, because it's well known, vs. FFXIV.

There are 13 battle jobs in FFXIV. There are 11 classes in WoW at last count.

Still missing my point, so I'll elaborate.

In Battlecraft, there are multiple roles, which run hierarchically.


A. Melee
-----1. Melee DPS
----------a. DRG
----------b. MNK
----------c. NIN
-----2. Melee Tank
----------a. WAR
----------b. PLD
----------c. DRK
B. Ranged
-----1. Ranged Noncaster
----------a. BRD
----------b. MCH
-----2. Ranged Caster
----------a. BLM
----------b. SMN
-----3. Ranged Healer
----------a. WHM
----------b. SCH
----------c. AST

Melee DPS
Melee Tank
Ranged Noncaster
Ranged Caster
Ranged Healer

So 5 roles. Each with at least two of their own specific builds, or jobs.
5 is a fair starting point, considering the age of the MMO.

What else could be added? plenty.

Crowd control comes to mind. Along with several hybrid roles, which the devs have hinted at on a number of occasions.

[WellFooled]

Still missing my point, so I'll elaborate.

I see the one point you're making (within the roles offered there are multiple classes to choose from to fill that role. So there is customization within that role), but I don't think I understand how that point is related to the topic of this thread. I might be missing something obvious here, so please feel free to spell it out simply for me. I'm a simpleton.

Every other MMO also has roles and classes that fit into them, but in addition to that they have so many more meaningful choices. I'd like to see, at least some similar meaningful choices added to FFXIV.

[Defias]

I personally like choice and options however I have seen both the Best & worse situations rise out of Talent Trees, specializations, etc.

A good example is Everquest 2s Alternate advancement. AAs for short.

They truly morphed what your character could do & what they became.
As a Rogue (Brigand/Swashbuckler) you could become a Tank through AAs.
As a Healer you could go down the "Battle Cleric" line and become a dps force.
As a Tank you coukd go down a DPS line and become very good at DPS.

For conversation we'll take the Healer path as it was by far the most dramatic of the AAs.
So Battle Cleric when activated boosted Defense to that of a Tanks.
It also turned all spells into Melee attacks.
So Smite lost its cast time and became an instant attack but it lost a % of its damage.
But going Battle Cleric never reduced Heals or Buffs. But now Healers had to watch for AOEs and were frontline fighters. A risky Tradeoff.

This line turned the healers up on their heads. Most players LOVED it.
The downside is...while it increased the amount of players playing healing jobs they were not Healing.

Eventually it got worse. Tanks became DPS, Healers became DPS. So who was Tanking? Who was Healing?
Answer: No one.

Now many folks like to say:
"You'll still have people who spec Tank/Healer."
This statement is true. I am NOT denying it.
But Tanks & Healers were Extremely rare. Akin to seeing a unicorn.
But...
Honestly about 2 (maybe 3) out 10 people choose to spec as Tank/Healer.
Why go Tank? Why not hit hard and be a "Heavily Armored Badass"?
Why Heal? Healers are weak in combat if you follow Fantasy Tropes.
Why should "I" take longer/be unable to solo, travel, kill, etc. Is a big reason why folks go the DPS path.
Also...the major factor for many was the fact there is less stress and responsibility as dps.
So queue times sky rocket, and when you did get a Tank and Healer you didn't dare cross them.

WOW learned this with Dual Spec.
Players claimed if they could have dual spec they would be able to have a Tank spec & Healer spec for group play. Then have a dps spec for solo/questing.
Well...
Nearly every single Paladin on Azeroth became Retribution (dps).
Warriors all flocked to the Warrior DPS trees
Preists went Shadow.
Druids went Moonkin.
Shamans went enhancement.
Death Knights ignored taking Tanking Talents.
And for their 2nd spec...
They specced a varient for dps for a different situation.

Tanks, Healers, became even rarer. Everyone wanted to do big numbers and top the parsers.
And once people figured out the ins and outs. It was __ spec or you were a bad.

From a development viewpoint due to specific builds being super effective at content. They'd have to constantly tweek them.

You can't have Tanks soloing Raid Bosses, and Rogues killing 10+ players solo (it happened a lot.)
But tweeks always broke something else.
Thus the "Flavor of the Month Class" came into existence.
Every month it was ___class that people gravitated to because they were OP.

Best way to alleviate this was to take away the trees. It dramatically reduced the constant stream of nerfs and buffs.

Now in EQs case...the devs straight up told people "___ class excells at this deal with it." And kept AAs and etc.
However Tanks & Healers ended up being treated like kings.
They ruled the game & you.
I myself charged gold/plat to Tank dungeons. (I'm a Mercenary at heart.)
People gladly paid up too. No questions asked.

In todays MMO world that'd be unacceptable.
To put in FF14 terms.
Imagine if Yoshi came out and said:
"Paladin is the Endgame Tank. If you want to be the best Tank you role Paladin because they have _ CD(s) and abilities. Warrior is for Off Tanking and Dark Knight is for Dungeons.
White Mage is the Endgame Healer.
Scholar is for Dungeons, Astrologians are for Off Healing.
Black Mage is the highest dps class period.
Ninja is the solo class."

Result: Players would riot.

Now some folks will say: "Having facts like that is what made XI so great."

Well if I remember correctly XI had many jobs that no one played/took to groups as a result.
Beastmaster & Puppeteer are 2 of the most famous examples.

That said. I'd love trees, ability morphs, and etc.
Hell in ESO I solo literally any and everything on my Templar thanks to their skillpoint system.

However if they did add this in. I feel the combat engine would need to be replaced with something along theblines of Tera, PSO, or some action game. So folks can be self reliant, blocking and dodging would need to be the new focus. So players are accountable for themselves.
This way the whole "balance" thing can go away.
Balance really only hinders The Trinity system & PVP imo.

[Derio]

The OP answers are biased. You may not like crafting but I do and there are others out there like me that like crafting as well. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean everyone else and their grandma doesnt like it.