The Illusion of Choice

[Malzian]

Hey, I liked your response, as it is a perfect argument to my note on crafting. How would you feel if they added customization, but also added a default automatic build? This would allow people to customize if they wish, or they could hit a tickbox that automatically fills in the traits as they level for a build chosen by the development team?

Alternatively, the default build could be crowd-sourced. As in, it defaults to what the majority of players are using. So if people discovered a good build, shared it online, most people copied it - then new players would automatically get that build if they opted for the default.

Honestly, I really just don't like having to worry about builds much like Belhi (and good heavens I loathe forced skill resets for when they make adjustments...) so that may color this some, but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that while this could be a good thing in theory it sounds far, far too much like it could end up being a massive piece of 'troll bait' to me.

[Reynhart]

Honestly, I really just don't like having to worry about builds

If you don't want to worry about builds, you'll just follow one of the million guides over the internet telling you what the perfect build is.

[Cherie]

The "illusion of choice" is a philosophical metaphor... It's funny you use it to apply to this game when there are many people that believe that there is no choice in real life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

It's a interesting read. But of course, it would apply easier to a MMO than to real life (as which the metaphor was designed for). In real life, it would be like, you could have only made one decision for any particular situation and if you redid it, you'd pick the same thing every time. In a MMO, it's even more narrow, often there are just flavors of the same thing. It's by design actually. It's generally what people want, otherwise, not everyone would be considered "equal".

[Malzian]

If you don't want to worry about builds, you'll just follow one of the million guides over the internet telling you what the perfect build is.

First off, I'm sure you mean 'mathematically perfect build', because in a system like that there is no 'perfect build' that will suit every player. But then, now here's the thing... if there is a perfect build out there that suits everyone... what's the point of having systems where you can make anything else? If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

The problem with giving people these kinds of 'choices' in games isn't a mechanical one, it's not that it's an inherent problem within the system of the game but it is a sociological issue. It's the same reason why we have the 'crazy uncle' or 'crazy cat lady' archetypes. People who make a valid choice to live (or play) in a manner that is outside of what is deemed appropriate in a society will be ostracized by that society.

Yes, I don't want to have to deal with specialized builds, because ultimately it boils down to either 'you're doing it right' or 'you're doing it wrong'. Doing it one way will get you into content, doing it the other will keep you out of content. You don't even need to look very far to see this at a base level where you get the 'this composition vs that composition' argument over raids. When I play I want to be able to settle into my class and know that, beyond my gear setup, I don't have to sit and do the research or rely that someone out there is going to detail out every little thing I need to do, and I don't want to have to fix those skills when they make adjustments that change that build like every other patch if not more often.

Does it help to follow guides? Yes, looking up the things you will need as far as what gear you should have, what food you should bring and the like is one thing. But when you start putting in the variation of those skill choices it changes and suddenly it's, 'This build for this fight, this other build for the next one so go change your trees, then for the next one...' I had to do this once already in LotRO and it was hell, and I personally haven't stepped back into that game in the 2 years since I left it over that very issue.

I, for one, do not want to see XIV have to go this route, there are far better options available and I personally think that the Jobs are distinct enough as-is. I also don't want to have to worry even more about being in a DF group and wondering about what skills other players may or may not have. It's bad enough with Cross-Class skills going into a fight with a Tank-Swap mechanic and praying that the other tank knows enough to have Cross-classed Provoke on WAR/DRK if they've even taken the time to level GLD/PLD at all (yes, I have run into this problem on more than one occasion). If you're fine with this, and this is something that the devs choose to implement... which I highly doubt they ever would... then you can be free to enjoy it as much as you like, but for me in my opinion... as much as I love this game, I'll be moving on.

[Kaurie]

First off, I'm sure you mean 'mathematically perfect build', because in a system like that there is no 'perfect build' that will suit every player. But then, now here's the thing... if there is a perfect build out there that suits everyone... what's the point of having systems where you can make anything else? If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

I don't think there has to be 1 perfect build with everything else being much worse. I think builds can tackle different strengths and weaknesses. These can be strengths and weaknesses of both the players and of the content. For example, a BLM build that is similar to now with very high damage output theoretically, but punishes greatly for movement/latency/mess ups. There could be a build that is more forgiving of those things, but has a less high output. In this sense build 1 is better theoretically and by the top-tier players, but build 2 will provide a higher damage output for the average player.

Further, if you are to suggest that having 1 optimal build is enough reason to not have builds, then what is the point in having rotations? There is one optimal rotation that is not spelled out for you in the game. You're either doing it right or doing it wrong. In this sense, wouldn't it be best to get rid of rotations and simply have 1 button that performs all of your actions for you? This would remove the choice presented of pressing skills in a different order, and then no one would be playing incorrectly any longer. For myself, I think that reasoning isn't sound and takes away from the fun of the game. The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun.

Ultimately, I realize that this game will likely never have specs and builds. It's very unfortunate, because I find them fun. I keep trying new MMO's as they launch in hopes that they will replace FFXIV so I could enjoy this. However, each game I have tried so far has significant meta issues that are game-breaking (more-so than not having build diversity). Such as Wildstar and their interrupt meta and Blade and Soul with their lack of healers and chaotic grouped gameplay. I am strongly considering a return to WoW, but returning now doesn't make sense - I got the 100 boost and was just confused as to what was going on after not having played since Cata. I've pre-purchased Legion and may move to that come launch.

That said, as people continue to provide feedback and suggestions to the game, I'd personally like to see more well thought out counters than "This will just provide an illusion of choice /thread". I find that argument is not very sound, as is often said as if it's obvious and enough on its own. The issue really boils down to, some people enjoy that choice and some people don't.

[Reynhart]

First off, I'm sure you mean 'mathematically perfect build', because in a system like that there is no 'perfect build' that will suit every player. But then, now here's the thing... if there is a perfect build out there that suits everyone... what's the point of having systems where you can make anything else? If you're not using the 'perfect build' then you are only ever hindering the people you are playing with and if you do that then people will call you out on it and shun you from content.

That again...
Why ? because some builds are more fun.

And again "hindering people" is overdramatizing for everyone besides top-tier-high-end-game-world-first-parties. It's exactly why people keep playing PLD, MCH and SMN even though they can be slighty weaker...or how you can end with i160 people in the Expert Roulette instead of ilvl170...
So, in fact, for 99,99% percent of the game x playerbase, chosing a different build is not an issue.

And the best part ? Since people can level each job, they can chose to follow one optimum build for their "raid-job" and be creative with everything else for the Duty Finder.

Skills tree is a far better option to invest development time than Chocobo Racing...or chocobo breeding...or Lors Of Verminion...or Triple Triad...

[Kaurie]

That again...
It's exactly why people keep playing ... SMN even though they can be slighty weaker...

What?! 0.o

[Iagainsti]

After thinking about it last night, I realized SE has done this before in FFXI. This is what choice looks like though.....



Which included massive amounts of macro gear swaps for abilities due to stat modifiers, hours upon hours of increasing weapon skills(picture desynth leveling, but your whacking rabbits and/or crabs), studying the above chart so you're prepared no matter what your class composition is in any party, and hoping your party members have done the same.

Seeing how we cannot change gear once a fight has begun, a similar system is already disregarded. Food for thought though.

[Malzian]

Further, if you are to suggest that having 1 optimal build is enough reason to not have builds, then what is the point in having rotations? There is one optimal rotation that is not spelled out for you in the game. You're either doing it right or doing it wrong. In this sense, wouldn't it be best to get rid of rotations and simply have 1 button that performs all of your actions for you? This would remove the choice presented of pressing skills in a different order, and then no one would be playing incorrectly any longer. For myself, I think that reasoning isn't sound and takes away from the fun of the game. The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun.

Rotations are a bit different from builds, though. A build is something you set up before a fight and you have to adhere to within a fight and it sets the very basic structure of how your character plays. A rotation is different in that what it is intended to do is maximize the capability of the skills you have available to you at any given point in time. In all honesty, the concept of a skill rotation isn't even all that common in many previous MMOs because there are very few 'traditional' MMOs that feature a GCD for skills.

Your rotation can be changed on the fly, it can be altered for a reaction to a momentary situation so that you can perform to the best of your abilities and is inherently flexible. You can't stop in the middle of a fight and 'respec' for one mechanic or another, and even if you could you likely wouldn't because the time you spend in the interface is time you're not focused on the fight. But even in that... you have a mathematically 'best rotation', and while it is flexible within itself you will still get called out if you mess it up badly or don't do it at all per the famously mentioned 'Ice Mage' who only casts Blizzard spells.

[Kaurie]

Rotations are a bit different from builds, though. A build is something you set up before a fight and you have to adhere to within a fight and it sets the very basic structure of how your character plays. A rotation is different in that what it is intended to do is maximize the capability of the skills you have available to you at any given point in time. In all honesty, the concept of a skill rotation isn't even all that common in many previous MMOs because there are very few 'traditional' MMOs that feature a GCD for skills.

Your rotation can be changed on the fly, it can be altered for a reaction to a momentary situation so that you can perform to the best of your abilities and is inherently flexible. You can't stop in the middle of a fight and 'respec' for one mechanic or another, and even if you could you likely wouldn't because the time you spend in the interface is time you're not focused on the fight. But even in that... you have a mathematically 'best rotation', and while it is flexible within itself you will still get called out if you mess it up badly or don't do it at all per the famously mentioned 'Ice Mage' who only casts Blizzard spells.

Indeed, hence this part of my post, "The difference between the two is execution and planning. Personally, I find forethought and planning to be quite fun, and the execution to be somewhat fun." I get that they are different; however, the reasoning that there is "one best option" can be applied to rotations. As that doesn't mean rotations should go, there must be another reason why having builds is not desired.

i.e. You could choose a rotation of only Ice Spells as a BLM in today's game and everyone will hate you for it, or you can choose a poor build and everyone will hate you for it. Why is option one OK to have in the game and option two is not?

After thinking about it last night, I realized SE has done this before in FFXI. This is what choice looks like though.....

That image is pretty blurry and I can't really read specifics. Is this image evidence that choice is good or bad and why/how, I am unsure?

Also, I'd like to point out that just because 1 game did customization or choice 1 way doesn't mean every game will be the exact same. There are lots of MMO's out there and the majority of them have their own systems for customization and build choice.