The Illusion of Choice

[Cold_Raven]

Never confuse an MMORPG with an RPG.

Do what you want yourself but not when you play with others.

Ha ha...

And you need to not confuse "playing with others" with "playing with you."

[Ironos]

If you don't play optimally because of your own enjoyment?

So, just to clarify, are you referring to playing your particular class optimally or your role optimally? I've had some insults hurled my way due to my choice to play PLD (this was just EX Roulette, mind you) and because PLD lacks AoE damage I wasn't being "optimal" enough for them. I was holding aggro, rotating CDs properly, and going SwO on bosses (not really worth it on trash pulls) to contribute as much as possible. My DREX runs takes, on average, about 17-18 minutes. Apparently this isn't "optimal" enough for some people. So you're saying that despite me enjoying PLD more (mostly for it's aesthetic) I should go play DRK or WAR because they're more optimal?

[Galdous]

Using wow as an example of what having choice means is actually one of the better examples. There were actually 3 viable specs for demonology back in vanilla. One was the ruin build, the other the nightfall build with demon mastery for more mana/+damage buff then there was the enslave demon build which involved being able to use +hit items to counter the limit of enslave demon before its nerf. To say that there was just one optimum build was silly. What I do agree though that was hard to balance was feral and balance spec druids being accepted in raids. You was brought to heal as a druid.

[SendohJin]

If anything, it's the other way around. Many MMORPG are very heavy in customization. I've played about half a dozen MMOs, which is a small sample size I admit, but FFXIV is the only one to offer no way to customize your job. Can you think of any MMORPG that offer as few choices as FFXIV?

which of those let's you change class/job on the same character?

[Iagainsti]

Great Write up, Kaurie, I like the points you make, and it went down well with my morning coffee. I agree customization is great and fun, why I still believe Morrowind was the ultimate single player RPG. +1

[Kaurie]

Thank you all for contributing to the discussion! My forum posts are quite limited, and one post just rolled off the 24 hour timer, so here I am replying to a few things.

Well, since you used this analogy, let's add in a community element:
You went to the grocery store and saw several blocks of cheese for a dinner party. There are two kinds of cheese: One cheap and you like the best. One notably more expensive, but the seven others at the dinner party prefer this expensive one over the cheap one you love. Would you buy the cheap one that you love or the expensive one?

I feel that you misunderstood the focus of my analogy. Your example is a great use of the analogy for a particular instance, but the point of it was that there are many different situations which would call for different uses. One such example is you're in a group that demands one cheese. However, the idea is that each build can be used better in certain situations - such as an AoE build that destroys dungeons faster, but a direct damage build that would be better on A1N/A1S, or a high burst build which may be better for Ravana EX to get down the butterflies and throw great damage when the sword is up. Each situation varies and calls for a different build, and it's on you (and the internet?) to figure which build works for which.

For people less inclined to min-max, they can choose what they find more fun. This may be less optimal for group play, but as is already evident, this already happens. We already have people pulling 50% of the DPS capabilities of their job, or tanks who pull 1 mob at a time or healers who don't DPS etc. Having build sets and this type of play are not exclusive.

Honestly, I'd be fine if my party played in a sub-optimal way if it was negligibly sub optimal in non-savage. For example, I tolerate it when my healers don't dps, even though when I heal, I dps and I think it's best. Jumping to "ice mage" tolerance is a bit extreme. I think what OP was suggesting is different ways to play/build a job that are all "right," some play a little better or worse depending on the context.

That said, I don't think it will ever happen because Yoshi has been outspokenly against that several times. He has concerns. I'd like to illustrate these with a (simplified) example:

Say on black mage there are three builds: fire, ice and thunder. Say that they somehow manage to balance them to where there's a negligible difference between each for most content, which in and of itself is a big assumption. And say you had to lock in your BLM to play a certain way because gear stats, or whatever. So you gear a "fire" mage. But when the next raiding tier comes out, ice mage is ever so slightly favored for the raid. So only ice mages get taken into the cutting-edge content. Sure, you can roll fire in the dungeons and normal mode trials, but if you got locked out of raiding for a cycle, that would suck for you. And even if the next raids people started taking fire, you're only in the raiding content for half a year before it gets switched again. Why stay subbed if you play for the raids you can't get into? It's not a good business model.

Great feedback for sure. However, when I picture having builds, I picture it being very easy to swap between them. Much easier than it currently is to swap jobs (due to gear). We can be a Fire Mage in 1 raiding tier, and an Ice in the next. We could even be a Fire for A1S, A3S, A4S but an Ice for A2S due to the hypothetically superior AoE. Most games that I play have the ability to save builds that you can swap depending on your content.

Never confuse an MMORPG with an RPG. RPGs are single player games and you do whatever you want, however you want; MMORPGs are multiplayer games and if you play with other people you do what is expected of you, you dont play bard with pie gear for example.

14 has three roles: tank, healer and damage dealer. If there's one best way to gear spec for damage/healing then yes that is the way and any other way is just wrong. If you're over geared then playing less than perfect isn't an issue but early on it can be an issue.

I spent yesterday doing Void Ark, we wiped three times because fist of all people were not playing properly so damage was low and secondly, the most important they were not moving out of stuff they should. The other healer let the faerie do most of the healing so I had to do most of it.

Do what you want yourself but not when you play with others.

I am definitely not confusing the two. I prefer the build customization in MMORPGs because the decision lasts and you can constantly learn, improve and adjust. In a single player game, I often care more for the story than my character progression.

I am not sure if I gave you the impression that I run around as an Ice Mage currently, I certainly do not. I play quite optimally and to the best performance I can for my team. I don't think that creating builds and theorycrafting are exclusive to poor players, and would argue that they are more likely to be done by players who care about their performance and play well.

No one is denying you to play how you want. You do you and roll that ice mage bae. It's your $15. But remember: it's the parties $45. If you don't play optimally because of your own enjoyment? Expect to be kicked. You're potentially ruining it for them.

I couldn't care less about your enjoyment. I find mine in clearing content and not taking 25m in a 15m dungeon.

Illusion of choice is real...Yoshi acknowledges it, WOW has acknowledged it, everyone with half a brain has. Get on our level plx.

I feel that your response is directed at another argument. I am not sure if I worded things poorly, or just made the post too long and you didn't read it. As previously mentioned, I do play optimally and have never played as an Ice Mage. This is not about 'playing how I want', but about having a desire to have the game enable me to enjoy a part of the game that FFXIV currently lacks.

Indeed, my average dungeon runs are significantly faster than most, as I am a SMN (AoE heavy) and play to my best each time. Constantly, I am with other party members who say things like "fastest run ever!" or "that was so fast omg" etc., yet, for me it feels either usual or sometimes even slow.

Just because Yoshi acknowledges something, it does not mean it's fact. It takes a great mind to question what is told to them, and not accept things at face value. I am not suggesting Yoshi is incompetent, or doesn't know what he is doing, but he is not infallible. I do question some of his design choices.

Great Write up, Kaurie, I like the points you make, and it went down well with my morning coffee. I agree customization is great and fun, why I still believe Morrowind was the ultimate single player RPG. +1

BFF, Best Frenemies Forever

[Darkstride]

It seems as though people think that "optimal" and "choice" are polar opposites. They aren't mutually exclusive, generally speaking. If the game were built properly to incorporate build diversity and customization, then you could have choices that are equally efficient, yet play differently from one another. That's just not the case with FFXIV specifically. It's not a problem that people want diversity and to be able to "play how they want", I think that's relatively understandable. FFXIV just isn't a game that allows it, so you're stuck playing jobs exactly the same way everyone else does.

Final Fantasy XIV is made to be as homogenized as possible for the sake of "balance", and now that the foundation has been made not once, but twice, it's not likely to change.

[Darkstride]

which of those let's you change class/job on the same character?

The Secret World. You can choose any combination of any weapons, abilities, traits, and stats for multiple roles on one character, and it's actually quite well balanced.

[Instrumentality]

The Secret World. You can choose any combination of any weapons, abilities, traits, and stats for multiple roles on one character, and it's actually quite well balanced.

Man you can't talk about balance in a game where anima shot existed. That's just not done.

[Duuude007]

Some people don't seem to understand.. the Job IS the equivalent of a talent tree build.

You roll 'tank'. But you want to do a lot of dps, at the sacrifice of defense. You choose the WAR build. You want lots of defense at a cost of dps? PLD. A balance/hybrid between the two? DRK build.

It really couldn't be more obvious that what you 'want'... already exists, and has existed since patch 1.18...

Open your eyes a little and look at the FFXIV job system from a different angle.