Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I think I see his point.

Let's say STR is lower than it's current value and VIT is slightly higher than it's current value. So, as an example, STR is [1] atm and VIT is [0] and with the changes in 3.2 it becomes: STR = [0.5] and VIT = [0.5].

Now we're going to make up some hypothetical jewelry:

Example of Fending: 200 VIT
Example of Slaying: 200 STR

So for a tank, no matter which way you went, you'd end up with [100] whereas the MNK/DRG wearing the Example of Slaying would have [200]. So we're at a 100 deficit.

Now, the next ilvl upgrade:

Better Example of Fending: 300 VIT
Better Example of Slaying: 300 STR

Here, a tank would have [150] and a MNK/DRG would have [300]. The MNK/DRG would have a 100 upgrade, whereas the tank would only have 50.

I think that's what OP is saying at least, not 100% sure.

You win the prize.

[Kuwagami]

.9 x 200 = 180

.9 x 300 = 270

270 - 180 = 90

So 10 deficit, which would obviously be better than my example. They're not making VIT = 1 and STR = 0, though, as STR is attached to all left side tank gear as well as them stating that it would still contribute to damage output.

All that said, I'm not saying OP is right, I was just trying to explain his point in simpler terms.

Though there is more VIT than STR on similar ilevel accessories (unless they fixed that with 3.0), so depending on the ratio the damage increase may be the same.

Also, tanks will get more damage-related stats per ilevel increase (starting 3.2) because the ratio of STR:VIT isn't 1:1 (1:1.05 for the parashu as an example, or 1:1.06 for armors).


More precisely, the difference between a WIT tank and a STR tank in damage-related stats at i210 will be :
(all numbers are taken from a Seeker of the Sun Mi'qote on ariyala, and ignoring the +35 bonus stats)

=> VIT : 1880 total stats (773 STR, 1107 VIT)
=> STR : 1870 total stats (1008 STR, 862 VIT)

So 10 less stats, and the difference might increase with ilevel

Let's compare with a monk : 1066 STR

If we assume a full VIT tank will have the same power a STR tank has now (because I'm lazy to make in-depth math), and taking 1 as the current STR value, we get :

STR = 0.42
VIT = 0.62

new value : 1011, 3 above the 1008 goal. STR tank now has a 958 attack value, so a 5% loss.

Then the monk has +55 attack power when compared to the VIT tank

Now, all of them get +30 ilevel (assuming linear increase, numbers gotten from i180 =210 transition)

VIT war gets +125 STR, +220 VIT (total : 898 STR, 1327 VIT) : total attack power becomes 1200
STR war gets +180 STR, +155 VIT (total : 1188 STR, 1017 VIT), total attack power becomes 1130 (6% loss to VIT tank)
MNK get + 180 STR (total 1246 STR), total attack power becomes 1246

The monk now has "only" +46 attack power when compared to the VIT tank.

so in the end the tank is having a higher growth rate than the monk...


I'm sure there are other ratios that could work too, but I couln't play with numbers in a way that would make both VIT superior to STR and tank's growth equal to monk's one. :/

Anyway, math. and I'm sure devs thought that out. Somehow

It's actually a valid concern on the face of it, but I think it works out okay.

It's reasonable to think that the modifiers will be something like 50% VIT, 30% STR. You can see this post for an explanation of why, but the tl;dr is that it keeps tank damage around that of a full VIT tank today while also ensuring that Fending accessories are immediately the best choice (ignoring details about parry secondaries for now).

The exact numbers aren't particularly important, but they do let us demonstrate what happens as item levels increase. This chart (i139 is used because there is no i140 equipment in the game) shows the total amount of damage-influencing stats each class receives from all their gear at each item level using the above weights. It assumes the tank is wearing all vitality accessories:



As you can see, the absolute difference ramps up as item levels increase. This gap will only continue to grow as we get new gear in 3.2 and beyond.

However, the absolute difference isn't what matters here; it's the ratio of damage between DPS and tanks that has the potential to cause problems. If a monk goes from doing 150% of a tank's DPS to 200% or 250%, the tank is going to struggle with aggro as time goes on. What we actually see though, is the following:



The ratio of the monk's damage-influencing stats from gear to the warrior's damage-influencing stats from gear actually decreases as item level increases. This is because vitality increases faster with item level than the primary damage stats:

• An i150 ring has 29 VIT and 31 STR.
• An i190 ring has 40 VIT and 40 STR.
• An i210 ring has 49 VIT and 47 STR.

As long as that ratio stays the same or decreases, having just vitality on Fending accessories does not cause a problem.

^this guy does it better than I do

[RaineAmorie]

since we don't even know how this is gonna work, what's the point in discussing it now? just be a tank and hold on to the mobs. Use your skill and combos, use cooldowns and be an effective tank. Stop griping about DPS and just play the job, you're a tank so tank. Sure you can want to do more damage, but that's not really what you're there for. It's nice to know your extra damage helped meet a tough check, but I'm seriously tired of all the arguing about it. Why do we even have damage reductions in tank stances? Maybe because it's not supposed to be what we're focusing on? Pretty sure I'd rather take a 10k hit and have enough hp to take another 10k right after instead of doing MAYBE 200 more DPS over the course of the fight. More DPS doesn't help if you get 2 or 3 shot before the boss hits 50%.

[Victoria_Silverdawn]

I agree with Raine... who cares how the math works out... just equip your VIT accessories instead of STR... and All SE said was that if people continue to use STR accessories, you will do less damage, so just be a tank, hold aggro, get punched in the face. then get a super punch to the face and live...

[Praesul]

since we don't even know how this is gonna work, what's the point in discussing it now? just be a tank and hold on to the mobs. Use your skill and combos, use cooldowns and be an effective tank. Stop griping about DPS and just play the job, you're a tank so tank. Sure you can want to do more damage, but that's not really what you're there for. It's nice to know your extra damage helped meet a tough check, but I'm seriously tired of all the arguing about it. Why do we even have damage reductions in tank stances? Maybe because it's not supposed to be what we're focusing on? Pretty sure I'd rather take a 10k hit and have enough hp to take another 10k right after instead of doing MAYBE 200 more DPS over the course of the fight. More DPS doesn't help if you get 2 or 3 shot before the boss hits 50%.

Because there is no argument to make. Pushing DPS as a tank doesn't mean that you stop being a tank. You're still tanking, you're still mitigating, you're still debuffing the boss to protect the party from raidwide damage. That literally never goes away. This "just shut up and tank" attitude is really stupid because we've been tanking this entire time, we never stopped.

[CrimsonThunder]

I'm hungry.

[Ashkendor]

Pretty sure I'd rather take a 10k hit and have enough hp to take another 10k right after instead of doing MAYBE 200 more DPS over the course of the fight. More DPS doesn't help if you get 2 or 3 shot before the boss hits 50%.

But that's just it. We all agree that in a raid setting, there's a minimum Vitality threshold that you have to meet in order to survive tankbusters. Nobody's been denying that we are tanks first and DPS second. As it stands now though, any extra Vitality you have after meeting that threshold is pretty much moot. It's like having extra Accuracy - it's just wasted points. Our encounters are cyclical. The damage is predictable and there's enough instant heal abilities that you can easily be topped off between two big hits (Heavenly Heel and the followup Ascalon's Might is a great example) or one big hit and the next auto.

On the other hand, that "measly" 200 DPS that you're talking about adds up to a boatload of damage over the course of the fight, especially for long encounters. Over the course of a 13 minute fight, that's 156,000 extra damage you're doing just for streamlining your build by swapping out some accessories. There is such a thing as having too much HP. The only time doing "too much damage" becomes a problem is when it pushes phases in strange and unexpected ways (I'm looking at you, un-nerfed T7).

[ErikMynhier]

The honest answer is we know nothing and can guess nothing. The devs have taken left turn actions so fast in the past they could literally do anything. They may:

1. Split the STR/VIT
2. Make VIT the sole stat and remove the STR from all tank gear (as they did with some NIN gear when it was added)
3. Random non-sense

[Maero]

Unless it will actually be a huge change, i will still use str accesories...
We will see when the patch comes out, dunno why some of you are getting so worked up about it, lol

[MugenMugetsu]

There's really no need for the change. We've gone this long using STR as our primary damage modifier, and in all honesty it makes a lot more sense for STR to modify the damage of attacks rather than VIT. VIT by definition would not be a damage modifier. I don't know why SE feels the need to make the change. We already have bloated HP pools and out gear everything with the exception of Savage and some of the EX fights so I really don't see the need to greatly increase our HP pools for any reason whatsoever.

Looks like any potential DPS loss from the use of Fending accessories (not to say that there will for sure be a decrease to tank DPS), will be negated by the fact that greatly increased HP pools will allow tanks to tank with tank stance off eliminating the loss of DPS solely caused by being in tank stance. A part of me looks forward to being able to tank with Grit off so I can use Blood Weapon as often as possible which increases my attack speed and causes for all of my attacks to absorb mp while under the effect of Blood Weapon which will allow for even more possibilities as well as making it easier to keep Darkside up. More mp means more time with Dark Arts up which will also be a DPS increase so, while I'm not necessarily thrilled about the change, I am a little bit excited about the potential for opportunities it will create. I'm not saying that there will not be a time to have Grit up, but with a bloated HP pool anytime my mp is low the threat of being KO'd due to turning off Grit, turning on Blood Weapon and quickly getting my mp back up will be much less of a worry and I honestly feel that for the majority of content it will be something that will be easily done, and in my opinion will make Drk more fun to play.

So, to me, this change has it's pros and cons, but I feel that bloated HP pools can allow for more derpy tanks due to more margin for error as well as make the game even easier for the majority of content because bloated HP pools will allow tanks to eat mechanics because, why bother getting out of the way when you have 20k+ hp and the damage you're going to take isn't enough to cause concern? Also, this could cause for healer DPS to decrease as some healers like to keep tanks topped off which will cause for more mp use to do so and less time in Cleric Stance dps'ing. However I could be wrong about the loss of Healer dps and sincerely hope that I am.

I don't understand why a lot of people feel that tanks shouldn't be concerned with the amount of DPS that they are putting out. Tank DPS increases enmity and also helps to make fights end faster which causes for runs to be smoother with less damage taken by all. A War has a Great Axe, Paladin a sword, Drk a Great Sword. These aren't meant to be seen as tooth picks or wet noodles. These are weapons to be used to do damage. As much damage as possible. Any tank that isn't interested in maximizing their DPS and is only concerned with their enmity meter and mitigating damage is, in my opinion, not as good a tank as one who not only focuses on those two things but also makes their best effort to maximize their DPS to make the maximum amount of contribution to the group effort as possible.

I sincerely hope that SE does not decrease tank DPS and modifies the numbers allocated to the damage modifiers for VIT and STR to keep tank DPS numbers comparable to what we are seeing now.