WAR 4.0

[MPNZ]

Ok, so from everything that I've read: would lowering the self-healing potency for war, and allowing the other tanking classes to contribute equally to the party DPS be sufficient in dealing with some or all of what is seen as being "broken"?

Also, why does everyone want the crossbars/hotbars to be even more cluttered than they are by adding more and more skills? Just how is that supposed to help instead of just being more of a distraction to players? Seriously, everything is a total mess enough as it is. The only new abilities they really need to give are passives, simple additions to certain skills, and maybe a new limit break for each class for levels 61-70.

[Syzygian]

Ok, so from everything that I've read: would lowering the self-healing potency for war, and allowing the other tanking classes to contribute equally to the party DPS be sufficient in dealing with some or all of what is seen as being "broken"?

"Broken" is harsh. "Unbalanced" is more appropriate. Every other group of jobs in a given role in this game tends to follow a consistent trend. As utility rises, dps drops, and vice versa. For example; NIN - high utility, lower dps DRG - mid utility, mid dps MNK - high dps lower utility, and so on.

With tanks WAR has highest DPS, highest utility, and interestingly seems to survive in the absence of external healing longer than the other tanks, thanks to Equilibrium being on a 60s CD, Bloodbath lasting 30s in conjunction with Berserk, and being able to cross class SW, making it a fundamentally better tank even without its personal DPS or utility. It doesn't have any meaningful weaknesses that facilitate raid/party synergy. It doesn't have anything that needs to be covered for it. Its an island unto itself.

And if you just "bring all the other tanks up to WARs level" (an often parroted response that I don't think anyone has actually thought out to a reasonable or realistic conclusion, they just say it because they don't want any WAR nerfs no matter how slight they are, such as a minor recast time increase on a cooldown), then you just shift the imbalance from being between WAR and the other tanks to being between all tanks and the other jobs, which all have readily definable strengths and weaknesses and are well-designed in the context of being part of a greater whole (a party or raid group) whereas WAR is "well-designed" in the context of being a 1-man army that insists not upon being part of a whole, but being THE whole.

[Merkava]

And if you just "bring all the other tanks up to WARs level" (an often parroted response that I don't think anyone has actually thought out to a reasonable or realistic conclusion.

The problem is that when you think, "bring tanks to WARs level" you probably think about buffing damage and outright cloning WARs properties into DRK and PLD and that just isn't necessary at all. The reason WAR is so "well balanced" or "well designed" is because a lot of it skills are balanced to be useful as both an OT and MT, something DRK and PLD are horribly lacking. Vengeance and Raw Intuition? Stacks for your Triple Fell Cleave. Equilibrium? TP Recovery when OTing, HP when MTing. There are just very few skills in the WAR toolbox that are ever useless at any given time, regardless of what the Warrior is doing.

On the other hand PLD and DRK have a large numbers of skill that are just rendered useless the moment they decided to change from MT to OT (or vice-versa). DRK suffers from this the most. What do you use Dark Dance for when OTing? Reprisal? That's useless. When MTing you can't use Blood Weapon while Grit is on, forcing DRK's to treat Grit like Herpes. The duality skills have between OT and MT position is something that has been horribly implemented, one of the best planned out skills in their arsenal is Carve and Spit as it actually offers the sort of dual utility tanks need in this game. Why not allow DRK's to use Blood Weapon while on grit but with a different effect than when Grit is off? Why not just make Reprisal an oGCD that has its timer reduced by X seconds whenever you successfully parry? (Allowing DRK's to use it while OTing and more frequently when MTing). Why is Abyssal Drain so useless in most raids?

PLD's? It is a bit different but they need their utility buffed enormously and again skills need to be planned out to be useful while MTing AND OTing. SE clearly had this idea when they introduced skills like Clemency, Divine Veil and Cover but it's so half-assed that it needs some sort of overhaul. Why does Divine Veil require a heal to activate? It makes zero sense. Why does clemency scale of Spell Speed? Why can it be interrupted so easily since a tank ALWAYS takes damage? Why is cover so horribly situational? Give it extra benefits or reduce its cooldown. Bulwark is a joke and Tempered Will is useless most of the time (useful when needed but that’s situational). Again, like I mentioned before, PLD needs skill to have some sort of usage while both OTing and MTing, they have a DPS and a Tank stance, why can't their skills change a bit whenever they change their stances to reflect what they are actually doing? Maybe have Tempered Will work somewhat like Equilibrium and offer the PLD TP refresh when OTing and HP refresh when MTing? PLDs need their utility boosted significantly.

The point is that ultimately skills need to be designed in a way that they aid the tank in their duality (OT and MT), WAR is perfectly designed in this sense while DRK and PLD are just not. I mean, in theory balance between DRK and WAR is perfect (WAR has better OT damage and DRK has better MT damage) but in the end WAR always wins out because the rigid design of DRK just doesn't make it very flexible, same for PLD but to a lesser extent. PLD has crap DPS? Fine, but buff their utility ENORMOUSLY, make them like BRDs/MCHs, the lowest damage of all the tanks with the best utility (making them desirable) and for the love of god, fix their TP issues.

This can all be done without making everyone a WAR clone, does WAR have issues? Yes, it definitely does. Equilibrium is OP as heck (it should be a 90s cooldown at LEAST) and Path is incredibly powerful considering it reduces ALL damage DIRECTLY (unlike DRK and PLD, who decrease the STAT, making it a less efficient reduction), 10% STR/INT reduction =/= 10% less physical/magic damage. Path should, perhaps, have its efficiency halved.

TL;DR – All tanks should be balanced to take into account both their role as OT and MT, skills should reflect this duality. Currently WAR is the only tank that does this and this is the main reason why it's the king of tanks. The solution to everything isn't MOAR DPS.

[Syzygian]

snip

This is actually a really well-reasoned and thought-out response and one of the few I've gotten that sounds like it was written by someone that's actually played all 3 tanks at endgame and is even-handed, and not toxic, snarky, horn-tooting, PLD/DRK-shitting WAR sass, so thank you for that. Seriously. /notsarcasm

On an unrelated note:

[Kuwagami]

On an unrelated note:

Not sure if serious or not (sarcasm isn't my forte) so I'll answer anyway

Grit is kin to courage, determination. Guts, if you may.

[Syzygian]

Not sure if serious or not (sarcasm isn't my forte) so I'll answer anyway

Grit is kin to courage, determination. Guts, if you may.

Vinny is speaking for every good MT DRK who has been asked to turn on Grit unnecessarily.

I.E. joke :P

[Kuwagami]

Vinny is speaking for every good MT DRK who has been asked to turn on Grit unnecessarily.

I.E. joke :P

ooooooh gotcha

[Iagainsti]

This is actually a really well-reasoned and thought-out response and is even-handed, and not toxic, snarky, horn-tooting, PLD/DRK-shitting WAR sass, so thank you for that. Seriously. /notsarcasm

This statement made me laugh, due to so many of your posts are so snarky towards the Warrior class.

Both tanks have an increased DPS burden/learning curve just in different areas. For the best tank in the game, WARs sure are defensive about their seemingly impregnable throne, and above all, they can't seem to defend it without woefully underselling the other two tanks.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ets-nerf-WAR-D

Basically, WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet* for your job to have drawbacks and areas where its less than optimal.

I could do this all day xD

#Delicious #Forums4life

[Syzygian]

snip

Funny how things taken out of context can be used for... snark...

The dude had good points and he debated with me like a person instead of getting all uppity or caustic just because I suggested WAR might be just a little bit much in some areas. I respect that. And he also managed to do it without completely shitcanning the other tanks or flopping his e-peen onto my face.

You should give that a try instead of being vindictive and digging up posts from literally *months* ago. #GetOverIt #NotThatIntoYou

The fact is, I am far from the only person to have ever thought that WAR was overpowered or unbalancing to the game in certain ways, and to have had opinions based on that. With the exception of folks like Merkava the response has always been unbridled vitriol, rudeness, butthurt, and, well, snark, instead of reasonable discussion, so you'll excuse me if I learned my snark from the best

[Iagainsti]

Funny how things taken out of context can be used for... snark...

The dude had good points and he debated with me like a person instead of getting all uppity or caustic just because I suggested WAR might be just a little bit much in some areas. I respect that. And he also managed to do it without completely shitcanning the other tanks or flopping his e-peen onto my face.

You should give that a try instead of being vindictive and digging up posts from literally *months* ago. #GetOverIt #NotThatIntoYou

Context.... xD the fallacy of your statement is even more comical than the irony of your previous one.

#godspeed