Gerun Oracles

[Cilia]

[Midgardsormr] was joining the chorus for Nidhoggs song of retribution, everything he says in that cutscene puts him solely on Nidhoggs side until Hydaelyn comes into it, "We do not forget, we do not forgive", "Ishgard shall burn", and so on. He even says he'll rise to join in the chorus, before implying he was going to kill us. It was only when it became apparent that we were Hydaelyns chosen did he do a complete 180 and instead opt to ignore Nidhogg and watch us instead.

Yes and no. The English version portrays him as outright hostile, but the Japanese dialogue paints him as far more ambiguous. He never says he's going to join Nidhogg, just that he's not going to stop him either. It's rather similar in the English dialogue, though he does say that he's "[rising] to join in the chorus" and the Japanese Midgardsormr says "Do not think I spare your life for no reason."

Reading into ambiguous characters like Middy takes a step back and objective viewing, but he was never outright hostile - the "fight" against him is, like Ramuh, just a test to prove our worth, and he did nothing to actually topple Ishgard in the millennium-long Dragonsong War. He's very much an observer rather than someone on the stage - the only thing he actually does is strip you of the Blessing of Light and then spirit you out of the exploding Singularity Reactor at the end of 2.5 and 3.0, respectively.

[CyrilLucifer]

snip

This always came off as strangely to me.

You are not the only Echo user, nor are you the only one of Hydaelyn's servants - to quote SE, there are 'many' working on Her behalf - so why the immediate 180? Does tradition or his pact demand he drop everything and give the WoL his full attention when the Warrior appears before him, regardless of his original intentions, which to me seemed closer to remaining neutral? I just find that a bit unlikely.

I suppose this is one of those answers we won't be getting until later. Middy hoards his secrets like he would treasure.

Edit directed towards Cillia: Middy actually says "Rise and join the chorus" at least 3 times overall in KotL when he raises the dead dragons, so it's a repeated phrase, not just a one off translation tidbit. I would know, I've gotten it 4 times in roulette this week on BLM and it's driving me crazy.

[Nalien]

Reading into ambiguous characters like Middy takes a step back and objective viewing, but he was never outright hostile - the "fight" against him is, like Ramuh, just a test to prove our worth, and he did nothing to actually topple Ishgard in the millennium-long Dragonsong War. He's very much an observer rather than someone on the stage - the only thing he actually does is strip you of the Blessing of Light and then spirit you out of the exploding Singularity Reactor at the end of 2.5 and 3.0, respectively.

He never got involved before because Nidhoggs aim was never to annihilate Ishgard, there was never the need to call on daddy. Heavensward made it fairly apparent that Nidhogg was tormenting Ishgard, that he always had the power to just wipe them out, but would rather make them suffer. It also made it very apparent that something had changed, Estinien comments on such, Nidhoggs gaze was solely on Ishgard, not the Eye he'd stolen. What changed? Thordan. Thordan VII gained Primal powers. He'd become a very real threat. Suddenly Nidhogg is calling for help, and Midgardsormr was ready to answer, until we stepped in.

We've actually got a fairly solid chain of events for this. The only missing piece is when Thordan was originally summoned. The first time we see him is in the Singularity Reactor, but given his Knights had already been blessed with his power, one can assume he'd been summoned at some point prior as well. That is the catalyst which started the current conflict. It's why Nidhoggs aims changed, it's why Midgardsormr was nearly dragged into the conflict. Heck, didn't Estinien even comment on wondering why Nidhogg wasn't leading the recent assaults as he used to? Being scared of a Primal is the perfect reasoning for that, too. Thordan got summoned, suddenly Nidhogg had to destroy them, rather than toy with them. Fighting a Primal could have gotten him killed, so he sits back, calls on daddy for help... Then we got in the way...

[Anonymoose]

What Midgardsormr told us is that he hear his son's call to join him on the chorus. But who said he will answer?

It was only when it became apparent that we were Hydaelyns chosen did he do a complete 180 and instead opt to ignore Nidhogg and watch us instead.

Both sentiments actually pretty accurate, imho. Midgardsormr says he's rises only to join in the song. "Ishgard has sinned, Ishgard plans to sin again, Ishgard will burn." He hears Nidhogg sing for the march on the Holy See and sees no reason to stop it; they deserve it. Meanwhile, you show up knowing jack about the situation and act like the march should stop on your request. He sees you as an insignificant worm - no more love or hate than you would show an insect. When he moves to flick you off the tower, the blessing of Light blocks the blow, and that's when he gets angry.

why the immediate 180?

To use vague religious mythology as a parallel, say a given God creates a hierarchy of more or less eternal Angels bound by some protection covenant. The leadership of Example City butchers and eats Hypothetical Angel hoping to gain their power, and Revengeance Angel steps in to lay down some old fashioned smiting. Archangel HQ sees this from on high and figures, hey, good for them. Smite on. And then Peasant from Another City waltzes up to the front desk, knowing nothing of this, and says, "Hey, bro, could you not? I've been meaning to visit that place." Might Archangel be rightfully peeved? Might Archangel smite this presumptuous ant, too, for good measure? Now imagine God him/herself blocks the blow... "Oh, come on..."

God didn't even step in when Example City was snacking on Hypothetical Angel! What is this!? So fine. If God thinks we have to listen to Peasant and Peasant says we have to look into settling this issue peacefully, fine. Fine. But I'm watching you. And if we're doing this, you're not tapping into God Mode everytime you stub your toe, either. God's weak enough as it is, right now. <slams door to blessing of Light>

He never got involved before because Nidhoggs aim was never to annihilate Ishgard, there was never the need to call on daddy. <...> something had changed <...> Thordan VII gained Primal powers. He'd become a very real threat. Suddenly Nidhogg is calling for help, and Midgardsormr was ready to answer, until we stepped in.

Agreed. It's only a one-off line of small talk, but Estinien clarly infers that Nidhogg sensed what was going on and abandoned the "torture them forever" plan and the "get back my eye" plan and decided to finally just raze the place to the ground.

[Nalien]

Agreed. It's only a one-off line of small talk, but Estinien clarly infers that Nidhogg sensed what was going on and abandoned the "torture them forever" plan and the "get back my eye" plan and decided to finally just raze the place to the ground.

I think it's a two-off actually. Once after we beat Vishap, and once more when we're preparing to travel with him to Dravania. Well, less of a change in plans for Nidhogg after Vishap, but still an indication that something was up;

But what of you, Nidhogg? Why did you not join your minions and make of this battle a slaughter? Have you grown so fond of the stench of your lair?
Mayhap you prefer to have your allies fight your battles for you... You have a girl to do your bidding now, do you not? No matter. I shall slay Iceheart, and all the rest...

Though I think prior to Steps of Faith Estinien made comment on Nidhogg ignoring him... "Please notice me, Nidhogg-Senpai!"

We now obviously know Iceheart wasn't even working with Nidhogg... So there has to be some other reason for him staying back. Come to think of it, that's a bit more evidence for Nidhogg really keeping an eye on Ishgard; Ysayle acted upon the whims of a trader from Ul'dah and Nidhogg jumped at the opportunity. He had no planning in that whole scheme, but his forces were still ready to take advantage of it. He was obviously very aware of current situations...

Perhaps a bit of a leap to go from that, to knowing Thordan was summoned, but it is still strongly implied that Nidhogg is still aware of his Eyes. Estinien knows what he is up to through it, and Nidhogg knows what Estinien is up to. Granted, we don't really have any idea where Haldrath was entombed, but it wouldn't be hard to believe that Nidhogg found out about Thordan that way. I mean Thordan VII did intend to fashion a sword out of the corpse...

[Cilia]

Since Thordan VII notes that both of Nidhogg's eyes have been kept in the Holy See's safekeeping, the only place Haldrath could have been entombed would be Ishgard itself... which, given Nidhogg's ability to sense his eyes and things near them, lets a rough timetable for the background for Heavensward be hashed out.

1. Ascians give Thordan VII the power to become King Thordan.
2. Nidhogg notices thanks to his Eye and sets his sights on Ishgard with the intent to raze it because he knows now they can win.
3. Steps of Faith.
4. Nidhogg regroups and our journey begins.

Basically, Thordan VII used us to kill Nidhogg so Ishgard wouldn't be razed and he could use his other Eye, the one with Haldrath, to power up relatively unmolested.

Clever old geezer... but, what does this have to do with the Gerun Oracles?

[Kallera]

Clever old geezer... but, what does this have to do with the Gerun Oracles?

This may be speculation based on Elidibus's words, but The Gerun Oracles seem suggest that history is cyclical, and that the current events of Eorzea are following a pattern of events that happen throughout the ages. Nidhogg's ultimate fate and willingness to cheat death may play into it, if someone were to suggest lockin him away somewhere...or if it sparks the rise of imperial ambitions.

[Kaiser-Ace]

This may be speculation based on Elidibus's words, but The Gerun Oracles seem suggest that history is cyclical, and that the current events of Eorzea are following a pattern of events that happen throughout the ages. Nidhogg's ultimate fate and willingness to cheat death may play into it, if someone were to suggest lockin him away somewhere...or if it sparks the rise of imperial ambitions.

So 3rd Astral Era to 4th Umbral Era all over again eh? Sounds like how Allag and Mericydia clashed only for Tiamat and Bahamut to.be sealed and allag to.crash and burn.

[Morningstar1337]

This may be speculation based on Elidibus's words, but The Gerun Oracles seem suggest that history is cyclical, and that the current events of Eorzea are following a pattern of events that happen throughout the ages. Nidhogg's ultimate fate and willingness to cheat death may play into it, if someone were to suggest lockin him away somewhere...or if it sparks the rise of imperial ambitions.

So Eternal Recurrence then. That has me wondering if certain trends repeated in the other Astral/Umbral eras (Besides the Warriors of Light)

[Nalien]

This may be speculation based on Elidibus's words, but The Gerun Oracles seem suggest that history is cyclical, and that the current events of Eorzea are following a pattern of events that happen throughout the ages.

Was it that history is cyclical? I thought it came off more as simply implying that events were preordained; Whatever is going to happen was scripted to happen.

As for Nidhogg... We have him flying off for "skies unknown"... If he wanted Midgardsormrs help to fight a Primal, and now feels betrayed by Middy, who has sided with us... Who would you go to for help? A certain Eikon hating Empire, that also historically "put down" Middy, perhaps? Would be a good way to instigate an Eorzean/Garlemald conflict and push us towards Ala Mhigo for 4.0.