People selling runs, why not talking about it ?

[Ossom]

If you join someone just for sake of helping them and getting some tomes, then you're expected to work with them and make a real effort at completing the dungeon together. Anyone who just bails at the first hint of difficulty is (quite justifiably) regarded as being a terrible player. Yet somehow, when players are getting not only the rewards offered by the game itself, but also an often quite huge payment of gil as well, they suddenly decide that getting that extra payment entitles them to insist on everything going perfectly or they can bail on the person paying them, or worse yet, shut them out entirely. There's no excuse for such behavior even without getting paid. I'll never understand how anyone would accept it when someone is getting paid.

When you sell your services to mow someones lawn do you expect them to help? No. Because you are selling the service, when you sell a run. You are selling a clear, not selling some one a tutor.

You don't expect your mechanic to teach you how to fix your engine problems. You pay him and expect him to do it for you. This is no different.

[OmegaStrongtan]

WTB: 100 Neverreap and 100 Wanderers Palace HM clears.

[Niwashi]

When you sell your services to mow someones lawn do you expect them to help? No. Because you are selling the service, when you sell a run. You are selling a clear, not selling some one a tutor.

You don't expect your mechanic to teach you how to fix your engine problems. You pay him and expect him to do it for you. This is no different.

But in this case, the service isn't to have the run done, it's to get the buyer themselves through the run. A closer analogy would be that you pay a tour guide to show you a city you're visiting, and the tour guide demands you just sit in your hotel room while they go drive through the city for you, since they can do that faster. It's probably quite true that a tour guide could drive through the city faster than they could take you through it, but you wouldn't be getting much out of it that way.

[Ashkendor]

But in this case, the service isn't to have the run done, it's to get the buyer themselves through the run. A closer analogy would be that you pay a tour guide to show you a city you're visiting, and the tour guide demands you just sit in your hotel room while they go drive through the city for you, since they can do that faster. It's probably quite true that a tour guide could drive through the city faster than they could take you through it, but you wouldn't be getting much out of it that way.

That's not necessarily a very close analogy either. Many people see raids as a means to an end - loot. As such there's plenty of people that don't care about experiencing the mechanics or clearing on their own as long as they get shinies. On the other hand, a tour is something you do for the sake of experiencing the sights yourself; there's no tangible loot to be had, really. If someone wants to learn the raid, they should join or make learning parties and clear parties to do so rather than paying for a clear.

Many veterans are willing to join learning/clear parties in order to help out. If I join one of those, of course I'm willing to help someone learn. I know what I'm getting into. When someone pays me for a clear though, they're paying for the amount of time it takes for us to clear in the most efficient manner possible. I'm not there to do hours of dicking around while they work through mechanics. Unless there's some kind of stipulation to the contrary, the buyer eats wall and lets us do our thing.

[Kaurie]

But in this case, the service isn't to have the run done, it's to get the buyer themselves through the run. A closer analogy would be that you pay a tour guide to show you a city you're visiting, and the tour guide demands you just sit in your hotel room while they go drive through the city for you, since they can do that faster. It's probably quite true that a tour guide could drive through the city faster than they could take you through it, but you wouldn't be getting much out of it that way.

I would say that it's more like that tour guide asks you to stay inside the vehicle while they drive you around.

It sounds like you are on a pretty horrible server Niwashi. If you are having problems finding a group to enter Savage (and are competent yourself) then I recommend server swapping. The longest I've waited to find a pug is like 1 hour, and my server is not known for it's flourishing raid community.

[Ossom]

My static refuses to teach people a fight. Because honestly, no one would be able to afford it. We can sell a Thordan run for 5M and be done in ~9 Mins. If we were to teach you to clear then it would take an hour minimum ( I taught my static Thordan and we had AS4 down by then and it still took us 3 Hours to down Thordan).

So if you wanna buy a clear were gonna charge you roughly 50-60M per hour, and thats for Thordan. We would probably sell AS3 learning per hour at at least 100M an hour just because of how much crap needs to be perfect in there. We actually can 7man AS3 easier than teaching a new person it honestly.

If you wanna pay that then I am pretty sure my static would be 100% for it, but I don't think anyone is paying that and that is why people don't want participants. Because they are a liability on whether or not a group is going to clear it. Most fights can be 7man, but fights can not be 7manned while there is an 8th person alive and actively screwing the rest of the group over by unintentionally messing up critical mechanics that causes wipes.

Heres something that I find funny that relates to this whole discussion in a way :

I get a lot of people asking me to carry them through AS3/AS4. They'll be like : "Ossom get me an As3 clear.", what they are asking me to do is to make a group of people for them to help them clear it. Which is honestly a joke. I'm supposed to find 6 other people who know the fight just to help you get a clear? It's not gonna happen. But I am willing to join any learning/clear PF I see if I have time and this is what I respond with.

Guess what happens though? They don't make a Learning/Clear PF for me to join because they don't want to learn the fight. Most people just want the clear without doing the work.

[PArcher]

Sellers are offering a specific service (a clear) with specific terms (ie, buyer can't participate in the fight) for a specific price. Some may have options (loot/no loot, multiple runs) that can change the price, but not always. If the buyer is looking for something else not offered, he can try to negotiate, or just not buy.



I don't think the people looking to to "clear" a trial or raid with a group really know what it means to let them "experience the fight", especially the ones that require a bit more coordination and knowledge of the fight. I'm sure many don't understand just how much one person can screw up a run by moving the wrong way out of an AoE, being in the wrong position, DPSing the wrong add, failing a mechanic, etc. Some of these people also think they are either better than they are, or know the fight better than they do (or worse, both), and can cause issues due to their ignorance and stubbornness

[Niwashi]

My static refuses to teach people a fight. Because honestly, no one would be able to afford it. We can sell a Thordan run for 5M and be done in ~9 Mins. If we were to teach you to clear then it would take an hour minimum
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I get a lot of people asking me to carry them through AS3/AS4. They'll be like : "Ossom get me an As3 clear.", what they are asking me to do is to make a group of people for them to help them clear it. Which is honestly a joke. I'm supposed to find 6 other people who know the fight just to help you get a clear? It's not gonna happen. But I am willing to join any learning/clear PF I see if I have time and this is what I respond with.

When you sell a run, it's not the nine minutes or hour or whatever it is spent in the dungeon that justifies a price range in the millions. That part alone would barely bring in a hundredth of what you're charging. What you're really getting paid for is, at least primarily, the part about putting a viable group together. You said here yourself that that's the part that's "not gonna happen" when someone is asking it as a favor (but also that you will do it for 5M in the 9 min Thordan run you mentioned).

If you'd be willing to put a group together and then spend ~9 mins running something for 5M, or in other circumstances would be willing to spend an hour or more helping people learn it for free, how do those combine into needing at least 100M to do those in combination, putting a group together and then spending an hour or so helping someone learn it? Maybe adding a bit of a premium onto the fee would make sense, but not all that much of one, not when the major effort (building the group) is the same in either case.

Guess what happens though? They don't make a Learning/Clear PF for me to join because they don't want to learn the fight.

Or, more likely, they don't make a Learning/Clear PF because those don't work. Sure, you can put one up and spend several hours trying to talk people into joining it, just to have various people join at different times and then leave again because the party isn't full yet. It's not as though any of them are likely to wait all day with you for just the possibility of a single run. Short of getting one of them who will indeed find 6 other people (exactly what you yourself said is "not gonna happen" from you, and isn't very likely to from anyone else either), PF isn't likely to fill for anything except whatever is currently the most popular run.

(And if you get lucky enough that it does somehow fill, you have to just hope that your teammates don't bail at the first hint of trouble rather than working through it. Because, guess what, the first time someone tries new content, chances are they won't already be good at it yet, even if they're good at their job and have read over descriptions of the mechanics. There's a big difference between not wanting to learn a fight and not already being perfect at it before you've even been there.)

[Niwashi]

Sellers are offering a specific service (a clear) with specific terms (ie, buyer can't participate in the fight) for a specific price. Some may have options (loot/no loot, multiple runs) that can change the price, but not always. If the buyer is looking for something else not offered, he can try to negotiate, or just not buy.

I wouldn't really have a problem with this.

What I do have a bit of a problem with is people ignoring it when they go on and on about how anyone wanting to buy a run wants or needs a carry and can't earn it on their own. I don't think it's generally the buyers insisting on these sold runs being carries. From all I've heard, it seems to normally be the sellers insisting on that. (Admittedly, "from all I've heard" is hearsay. As I mentioned a few posts back, I haven't bought any runs myself.)

Every thread I've seen that discusses run selling, people keep claiming that the buyers just want to be carried. Yet whenever it's asked more specifically, the answer always seems to be that it's the sellers who don't want to offer anything else. Clearly, anyone who ends up buying anyway is willing to accept being carried if that's as close to a real run as they're going to have a chance for, but that's a far cry from saying that they either want or need it to be a carry. Many would prefer it wasn't. And many others who don't now buy runs would likely be willing to do so if they didn't have to be carries.

[Ossom]

I do not "Put a group together" for any sales. My static sells runs during our raid time if we have all other content downed for the week. We don't go outside our raid time to handle a sale and I don't find people to form the 7 to sell the content.

I also do not sell services to find 6 other people. No one does that.

What I sell is the clear, and the loot. I do not sell the patience to put up with wipes. I do not put any group together for anyone. I will join groups to help people if they ask me though. But they need to put the group together because you can't pay me enough to try and get 7 people together to learn a fight for content I already have cleared. That's not for sale.

If someone made a PF and asked me to join, I'd join and we can start @ 2 and wait for it to fill up, I don't mind.