The Dark Divinity 3.0

[Februs]

Because Primals need worship to maintain their physical form while True Eikons seems to be able to sustain their form without followers. Thus implying an as yet unknown diffrence.

Only this is not true either.

In-game, both Bahamut and Odin are referred to as Eikons (well, Bahamut is actually referred to as an "Elder-Primal," but he is often put in the same category as Odin). Bahamut was confirmed to be summoned by the thousands of captive dragons that were being tortured by the Allagans within Dalamud, and Odin (who was explicitly referred to as a Eikon), has been confirmed to be summoned by his sword, Zantetsuken, using a similar method to the Extreme Primal summonings for Titan, Ifrit, Garuda, and the normal Primal summonings of Shiva and Thordan. The sword possesses a host and refashions Odin's body. Having followers is not required. You just need a body to snatch.

Technically, though, your theory is still possible if we consider the real Odin and the real Bahamut. It's possible that the little midget in Minfilia's office was not referring to the Odin or Bahamut we fought, but the original beings that those primals were made to look like. It's an interesting idea made more so by the fact that the he explicitly singles out Odin. It would seem to imply that Odin is still alive somewhere, which is possible given that we don't know what actually happened to Odin's true body.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a stretch. It is more likely that this all just falls to a simple matter of the translation of the in-game text falling flat, especially given what the Dev's have stated on the subject in the Q&A, but it is an interesting idea. It would be pretty cool if the real Odin was still kicking out there somewhere.

[Berethos]

Whoa! I haven't seen this thread in a while. Kinda makes me wonder when this questline will be continued. It has been a while ...

Hopefully 3.2 will bring some juicy new information since we're apparently facing one of these eikons of old...

As a side note, I had missed the additional dialog you can get from him outside quest conversations, and if I was hoping for any clarification it just left me confused - when asked why he was chosen despite being so young, he says he has "an intimate knowledge of the primal mind" and also says, preempting our apparent curiosity, that "you need not understand the nature of a power to use it, do you? It is much the same with the Echo, I imagine." Infuriatingly enigmatic so many months later.

[Belhi]

Only this is not true either.

In-game, both Bahamut and Odin are referred to as Eikons (well, Bahamut is actually referred to as an "Elder-Primal," but he is often put in the same category as Odin). Bahamut was confirmed to be summoned by the thousands of captive dragons that were being tortured by the Allagans within Dalamud, and Odin (who was explicitly referred to as a Eikon), has been confirmed to be summoned by his sword, Zantetsuken, using a similar method to the Extreme Primal summonings for Titan, Ifrit, Garuda, and the normal Primal summonings of Shiva and Thordan. The sword possesses a host and refashions Odin's body. Having followers is not required. You just need a body to snatch.

Technically, though, your theory is still possible if we consider the real Odin and the real Bahamut. It's possible that the little midget in Minfilia's office was not referring to the Odin or Bahamut we fought, but the original beings that those primals were made to look like. It's an interesting idea made more so by the fact that the he explicitly singles out Odin. It would seem to imply that Odin is still alive somewhere, which is possible given that we don't know what actually happened to Odin's true body.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a stretch. It is more likely that this all just falls to a simple matter of the translation of the in-game text falling flat, especially given what the Dev's have stated on the subject in the Q&A, but it is an interesting idea. It would be pretty cool if the real Odin was still kicking out there somewhere.

Actually the main difference between thinks we know are Primals and Eikons (mainly Odin) is that Odin requires no worshipers. Odin's origin is very different to what we have heard from other primals. Koji Fox, in an interview I think, said that Odin was a warrior from the north who came south to protect Urth, who was at the time an enemy of Allag. To try and do this he took up a cursed blade that turned him into the Odin, the Dark Divinity. Id say its safe to say the original Odin is at least physically long dead.

Now firstly this is a primal/eikon with no worshippers to sustain it. Bahamut had thousands of worshipers in stasis sustaining him.

Secondly, is that the Odin we have now seems to retain its original identity and purpose even though it has switched bodies multiple times.

Thirdly, the story seems to suggest it was an artefact, not a ritual that originally created the Odin the Eikon.

Also I don't think they mentioned Bahamut being an Eikon in the new quests. He is very much a Primal in the same vain as Ifrit or Titan, just more powerful.

Now the interesting thing will be to see what the deal is with the Warring Triad. Unless they have worshippers stuck in vats somewhere it seems likely their worshipers died out long ago too. This again would suggest there is a difference with them.

[myahele]

If anything its the sword zantetsuken that's eikon and "odin" is the avatar that it creates for itself from the body it "tempers"

Perhaps Odin the person -being such a powerful warrior- was the 1st and only one to tame Zantetsuken/ considered worthy (assuming it was an Eikon that liked mind controlling it's wielder/ cliche sentient sword) and when the real Odin was killed, it was Zantetsuken that recreated Odin the Primal.

So the Legends surrounding Odin could very well be based on reality? Legends states that he picked up Zantetsuken from from an Auri warrior, then somewhere along the line went to help Wiyu against allagans ? Somehow died/ got killed and that's when Zantetsuken recreated Odin the Primal which was eventually defeated and sealed by Wiyu for obvious reasons.

[Kaiser-Ace]

If anything its the sword zantetsuken that's eikon and "odin" is the avatar that it creates for itself from the body it "tempers"

That's long been my theory.

That Zantetsuken is an Eikon and is using it's possessed wielder as a catalyst to summon The Elder Primal Odin so that it may once more be weilded by the most powerful swordsman it has ever encountered.

[Belhi]

It is curious that even with new bodies the 'Odin' Zantetsuken creates seems to share identity and goals of the original Odin. Its like Zantetsuken created the original Odin and since then has simple recreated that original.

Regardless there is no need for worshipers since Zantetsuken isn't worshiped and nor it the Odin it manifests. Even if you argue the tempered individual is a worshiper that would still create moments where Zantetsuken had no worshipers.

Anonymoose might be on the right track. The entity might be effectively the same. The difference lies in how it came into being. Odin, rather than having worshipers, turns a mortal into a primal then acts as a device to perpetuate that summon. I wonder how it got a reputation as a cursed blade to begin with? Was Odin the first primal/eikon it created or was it considered cursed for another reason?

I also wonder what caused Urth to become an enemy of the Allag and if it had anything to do with Zantetsuken.

[Februs]

"you need not understand the nature of a power to use it, do you? It is much the same with the Echo, I imagine." Infuriatingly enigmatic so many months later.

I always found this, in particular, to be a very questionable comment and a pretty firm basis for not trusting him. I mean, that's like saying, "you don't have to know how a gun works to actually use it, right?" Well ... strictly speaking, you're not wrong, but that's not exactly the most responsible attitude towards the topic ...

[Februs]

Actually the main difference between thinks we know are Primals and Eikons (mainly Odin) is that Odin requires no worshipers.

Now the interesting thing will be to see what the deal is with the Warring Triad. Unless they have worshippers stuck in vats somewhere it seems likely their worshipers died out long ago too. This again would suggest there is a difference with them.

Again, this really depends on which Odin we are talking about, which Odin is being referred to as an Eikon, and the nature of Zantetsuken.

If Unukalhai is referring to the original Odin when he speaks of eikons, then this would seem to be correct. The mortal Odin required no followers to attain a truly amazing power (that we know of. It's possible he had followers of some kind, but we would never know). It would actually seem that the "true Odin" has more in common with the WoL/WoD than he does with a Primal, but that's a whole other thing.

If Unukalhai is referring to the Odin which we have fought, then it's not so simple. Similar to Shiva, "Odin" seems to only need a body and the sword. The sword simply acts as the crystal medium, little more than a great conduit of aether. Zantetsuken always remains after Odin's deathl, and it would seem that the sword has no worshipers ... only that's not exactly accurate.

No one has a shrine for Zantetsuken, certainly, but every warrior who uses a sword puts their faith into it. Odin (who was in desperate need for the strongest of weapons and pried this one out of an easterner's cold dead hands) put more faith into it than any other owner. He fought a whole war with it. Further, FFXIV already has a pretty well established basis for object worship with spirit bonding (which renders the weapon un-trade-able, and therefore unusable by any other person), aetheric weapon drops (which supposedly have the residual aether of the dead wielder trapped within) and the relic quest (Atma, Anmia, Zodiac mahatma / zeta). Zantetsuken has been around for more than 1000 years. Each new host feeds the sword their aether and possibly the aether of the enemies they defeat (if you follow the Anima/Zodiac lore). If you consider all of these things, then that's a lot of worship that has been provided to sustain its essence and an awful lot of followers who believed in the blade's strength.

Regardless, the nature of Odin (the current Odin that we fight) seems to boil down to the nature of his sword and how it has evolved over the time it has been killing people. It's entirely possible that it is simply cursed, and Odin's essence remains within the sword (probably via spirit bond) and is drawn out with each new host. This would imply that (assuming Zantetsuken is the "eikon") it requires no followers. However, it's also entirely possible that the sword itself is a primal that has been sustaining itself off of the worship of its hosts, tempering each new one as they prove their worth by defeating Odin's incarnation and living off of their aether. Given that the Dev's themselves have summed up the difference between the two words as little more than a language distinction (though they were still painfully vague on the topic) it's hard to say for sure which way this will go. Personally, I think it's a mix of the two, but only because I think it would have some pretty interesting lore implications for the Anima questline. We'll have to wait and see though.

Also, I too think that it is entirely likely that Odin's physical body is dead. However, the crystal imprisonment was empty when they examined it, and it would not be the first time that we've seen the Allagan's suspend someone's life for 1000's of years. That fact alone makes me hesitant to write off the possibility that he is still kicking. I highly doubt he is, but it wouldn't be the first time SE pulled the whole "suspended animation / sealed in crystal/aether/ blah blah blah" card on us.

[Waliel]

What are you talking about? That's exactly what it states. The Allagan had no word "primal", they had "Toshin" and "Eikon". "Toshin" was what we would calla powerful primal, "Eikon" is what we might call an "elder primal" or a very powerful primal. But at the end of the day a primal is a primal.

Therefore:

1. Primal = Toshin

2. Elder Primal = Eikon.

As far as I know:

Toshin = JP term for Eikon
Banshin = JP term for Primal
Elder Primal = Very old Primal.

Banshin and Toshin are what the Japense call Primal and Eikon. That's all.

[myahele]

Maybe the recent news about Thordans Knights being. "Blessed" by Thordan can give us a clue about the nature of Odin?

Perhaps Zantetsuken is the Eikon while Odin is the body the "cursed" individual takes after picking up the sword?