The arrogance of some people

[Iagainsti]

Well, it sounds like reason, but then you get into the concept of bad and good players and how they should be treated.

People are people regardless of anything, so treat everyone with kindness and respect is usually the go to whether they're terribad or super good at a game.

No.

We need 4 more pages.

4 More Pages.

I am I Against I, and I endorse this message.

[RickXRolled]

This is no longer about healer dps. This is now about getting to 100 pages.

[Tint]

This is no longer about healer dps. This is now about getting to 100 pages.

i am working since page 36 or so on this goal xD 100 pages of useless discussion...

gogo, we are so close ^^/

[Kaurie]

i am working since page 36 or so on this goal xD 100 pages of useless discussion...

gogo, we are so close ^^/

Heh interesting. In my opinion, this has been the most useful topic on the General Discussion in quite some time. The last most useful topic would have been on Parsers. Though, I also appreciate the topics on the Relic feedback and horizontal progression.

Like do you really find these other topics (all the topics on page 1 of General Discussion right now) have higher value?
I'm going to rate each from 1 to 5 (5 being useful discussion, 1 being not useful - obviously from my own opinion)

Red scrip Gear discussion? - 3 (I don't craft, but respect it's there - so neutral)
Can we please stop locking content out of DF? - 4
January 9, 2016 Active player census (and savage clear rates) - 2
Why is Housing even desired? - 2
Anima Weapon Gil Cost - 4
Retainers/inventory space - 2
How often do people use the player search - 1
Gil Spam - 1
Relic: Your progress on the Grind. - 2
Coffin Lid and wind up Echidna too rare? - 1
POST YOUR SELFIES - 1
Show your Miqo'te !! - 1
GIFs for those FFXIV moments - 1
What happens when you solo heal a Titan party from DF - 1
For the next expansion would you like a new race? More Faces or just sub-tribes? -1
Please, no more job restrictions for glamour. - 3
Let's talk about Hunts - a detailed rundown of their assumed mechanics - 3
Official ENTM-GD thread! 2.0 - 1
Marriage Partner Hookup Megathread! - 1

[AskaRay]

ooo

IDK what you have against screenshots and fun threads... not every thread has to be a "let's evaluate the state of the game". What happened to talking with others about what you enjoy ingame?

[Kaurie]

IDK what you have against screenshots and fun threads... not every thread has to be a "let's evaluate the state of the game". What happened to talking with others about what you enjoy ingame?

I have nothing against them, and I enjoy them. But they are hardly 'useful'

FORUM LIMIT -- EDITING POST TO REPLY (PS can this useless limit be removed, it prevents on-going thoughtful discussion more than it prevents spam)

I think that fundamentally we agree.

Yes, if someone in your party thinks you should be dpsing and you don't want to (and your party needing only light heals makes it obvious that you can) then you are bad. I think players should use their whole tool kit but above all else I think players should care about doing their part to be a good teammate. Being a good teammate means being willing to adapt to your party's wishes. Also, your party should be willing to adapt to yours. For example, if you say you are new to healing and don't feel comfortable switching back and forth to dpsing, I can respect that.

As for the rest of what you are saying, I will further clarify something: I do personally think that healers that won't dps are bad and even if that was the average, I'd still think personally that it was bad. My argument is just that it is not an objective thing and needs some context. The context is the group one gets and whether most healers dps. As you say, most healers DO dps and most groups expect them to dps.

The whole gist of my original argument is this:

It would be acceptable if someone (as a healer) refused to dps if certain conditions were met (e.g. no one cares, the content can still be cleared, etc.). In reality, those conditions will rarely be met. Therefore, you should dps.

100% agree, I don't think you can really say "objective" without first stating your unbiased criteria. As everyone's judgement has been made prior to creating any criteria, no judgement can be objective.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is why does it matter if it's "useful" or not? I mean if we really think about it this thread isn't very useful; this exact same argument is happening over in the Healer forum, with the exact same circular logic going around and around. If anything this thread is redundant.

He commented how it's useless discussion. I was making a statement that it is the most useful of discussion on the forums. I am not saying useless discussion (fun stuff) is bad, I am simply saying if he wants more useful discussion, he should look elsewhere.

As for the on topic discussion, I think that there has been a lot of good back and forth on whether healers should be expected to heal in a dungeon setting - or not. Further, I think the discussion evolved nicely to talk about if this should remain as an in-game design, or if they need (or should) to alter the design of the game to change the meta.

Kaurie it's a troll.

LOL but you are my favourite Troll

[AskaRay]

I have nothing against them, and I enjoy them. But they are hardly 'useful'

I guess the point I'm trying to make is why does it matter if it's "useful" or not? I mean if we really think about it this thread isn't very useful; this exact same argument is happening over in the Healer forum, with the exact same circular logic going around and around. If anything this thread is redundant.

[Purrfectstorm]

For your first part, that is directly what I was talking about. If you are in a party of 4, and one person complains that the healer is not DPSing then that meets that requirement.

For your dichotomy point, I can see where you are coming from - but we really have no evidence to support what the 'average' is. I consider not playing well to be playing bad. I consider DPSing as a healer to be playing well (or at least trying to), and thus if you aren't you are playing poorly. However, I can agree that we can say instead of bad/poor - the word is average. However, it's very unfortunate if that is the case. I see it like a math problem, say we are presented with the following question 20x20 = ? I'd say people who can't do this are bad at math, but let's say the average person can't do it. Is it the case that if they cannot do that question that they are not bad? I used a simple math question, because DPSing in a dungeon is simple. We could obviously make the question more difficult and say what is 543823 x 42342, and I imagine most people cannot do this - and I'd accept the premise that these people are average. So, I guess it all comes down to perspective. Do you view DPSing in a dungeon as a difficult task like my 2nd math problem, or one like the first?

Last part reiterates, we don't know what the average is :\ From personal experience, the average definitely DPSes.

I think that fundamentally we agree.

Yes, if someone in your party thinks you should be dpsing and you don't want to (and your party needing only light heals makes it obvious that you can) then you are bad. I think players should use their whole tool kit but above all else I think players should care about doing their part to be a good teammate. Being a good teammate means being willing to adapt to your party's wishes. Also, your party should be willing to adapt to yours. For example, if you say you are new to healing and don't feel comfortable switching back and forth to dpsing, I can respect that.

As for the rest of what you are saying, I will further clarify something: I do personally think that healers that won't dps are bad and even if that was the average, I'd still think personally that it was bad. My argument is just that it is not an objective thing and needs some context. The context is the group one gets and whether most healers dps. As you say, most healers DO dps and most groups expect them to dps.

The whole gist of my original argument is this:

It would be acceptable if someone (as a healer) refused to dps if certain conditions were met (e.g. no one cares, the content can still be cleared, etc.). In reality, those conditions will rarely be met. Therefore, you should dps.

[Judah_Brandt]

Well, it sounds like reason, but then you get into the concept of bad and good players and how they should be treated.

It's fair to say that all players should be treated equally, that is a given. I believe the actual argument lies in the fact that the players who choose to play as a Healer and utilize their entire job's ability kit are considered good while players who don't are considered less so. The majority of the ornery attitude comes from them not wanting to be called poor players. It's barely about what they should and shouldn't do at this point. Also, I only replied ultimately to make this thread longer.

And to add onto the last post, I don't think actively choosing to play your job poorly is ever excusable. Flat out refusing to do something for any reason is nonsensical if it would be to the benefit of the other players in a group for you to do so. That's being both a poor teammate and a poor player.

[The_Greatest_Evil]

Kaurie it's a troll.