The arrogance of some people

[Purrfectstorm]

Your premise was OK, but your reasoning seems flawed. If you are stating that all 3 must be met, then if someone is saying that player is bad then B) automatically is not met. If you're saying that any of the 3 options need to be met then for part a&c), if I don't care to push my SMN DPS limits and put out a solid 200 DPS and we take 80 minutes to run a dungeon. Would you say I am bad? I think most people would.

Further, down below you mention that the "best player" will DPS for Savage and that DPSing in Sastasha emulates "great play". This further supports the idea that DPSing as a Healer is something a good player does.

Agreed!

My argument was written in a really informal way. But I think it's obvious how I intended it. By someone not caring, I meant other players in that party. I don't think someone can be called bad for not trying when they don't need to try, no one cares that they're not trying, and they can do better in the scenarios where they do try.

As for your 2nd point, it's a false dichotomy because someone not being the best player doesn't automatically make them a bad player. Yes, I do think that healers that heal and dps the hardest content in the game are better than healers that don't do these things. However, that doesn't mean the healers that don't dps are below average, since average, by definition is based on what most other people are doing.

Now if healers feel that the average player IS healing and dpsing most content, then they should ask themselves why they aren't willing to play even at that level. If you won't come up to even an average level of play, then yes, you are bad, no way around that. But if most healers are just healing, don't let the haters hate, just know that there is a higher level of play that you're not part of.

[Kaurie]

My argument was written in a really informal way. But I think it's obvious how I intended it. By someone not caring, I meant other players in that party. I don't think someone can be called bad for not trying when they don't need to try, no one cares that they're not trying, and they can do better in the scenarios where they do try.


As for your 2nd point, it's a false dichotomy because someone not being the best player doesn't automatically make them a bad player. Yes, I do think that healers that heal and dps the hardest content in the game are better than healers that don't do these things. However, that doesn't mean the healers that don't dps are below average, since average, by definition is based on what most other people are doing.

Now if healers feel that the average player IS healing and dpsing most content, then they should ask themselves why they aren't willing to play even at that level. If you won't come up to even an average level of play, then yes, you are bad, no way around that. But if most healers are just healing, don't let the haters hate, just know that there is a higher level of play that you're not part of.

For your first part, that is directly what I was talking about. If you are in a party of 4, and one person complains that the healer is not DPSing then that meets that requirement.

For your dichotomy point, I can see where you are coming from - but we really have no evidence to support what the 'average' is. I consider not playing well to be playing bad. I consider DPSing as a healer to be playing well (or at least trying to), and thus if you aren't you are playing poorly. However, I can agree that we can say instead of bad/poor - the word is average. However, it's very unfortunate if that is the case. I see it like a math problem, say we are presented with the following question 20x20 = ? I'd say people who can't do this are bad at math, but let's say the average person can't do it. Is it the case that if they cannot do that question that they are not bad? I used a simple math question, because DPSing in a dungeon is simple. We could obviously make the question more difficult and say what is 543823 x 42342, and I imagine most people cannot do this - and I'd accept the premise that these people are average. So, I guess it all comes down to perspective. Do you view DPSing in a dungeon as a difficult task like my 2nd math problem, or one like the first?

Last part reiterates, we don't know what the average is :\ From personal experience, the average definitely DPSes.

[Alahra]

From personal experience, the average definitely DPSes.

In my experience in the Duty Finder, I'm not so sure. When queuing without a healer (either myself healing or a friend doing so), I see far more healers that don't DPS than those that do—but that's something that's going to vary based on Data Center and a ton of other factors, too.

[Iagainsti]

I have been loving this thread all week, following the back and forth(and sideways; a lot of derailment if you actually read through it) and had to share with my FC healer pool. I'm not a healer myself, but they brought up a great point that I know has been echoed across a lot of pages here. Any player that does not take full advantage of their tool kit is either a) still learning or b) has not learn enough about it yet. Not utilizing Cleric's Stance would be like myself, as a Warrior, not utilizing either Defiance or Deliverance. I know some people will say Defiance doesn't count but hear me out; With an i205 weapon, and my gear ilvl being 201, I can possibly still tank any roulette duty without Defiance. Does it make the pull easier? No. Does it help my team of 3-7 ppl? Definitely no, but it is possible. Why I would do such a thing and not utilize my tool kit properly is beyond the scope of reason, in the same line as a healer not utilizing their full tool kit for any encounter. Personal playing preference is not an argument in the strictest sense here; You have the abilities, and not using them properly is making you a "bad" player. Once you learn to utilize them properly, you're being a "good" player. It's really that simple.

[Eothas]

I'd say that in practice that depends on whether or not the tank is being really aggressive, tanking in DPS stance, using a full STR build and paying more attention to optimizing their DPS than they are to using their cool-downs or dodging the avoidable damage. If they are overly damage focused, the healer will *need* to spend more time looking after the tank. In which case, unless the tank is a WAR, the question is, would it be better for the tank to go turtle and let the healer do more damage, or does the additional damage output (over and above that which is done anyway to maintain aggro) of the tank outweigh that of the healer? If not then the tank needs to put their numbers and ego aside and let the healer open up their box of tricks.

That really depends. Well, from my experience tanks that can push good numbers (800~1k+) are really rare in DF, more rare than good DPS jobs. Usually, if they could do great DPS, I wouldn't mind giving them more attention and healing. Most tanks that can reach this mark will use defensive CDs aswell, though, so there is still plenty of time to DPS as a healer. Usually when tanks are being really agressive and don't dodge any AoE, and barely use any defensive CDs, they should indeed put their ego aside, because I doubt they would be doing good DPS in the first place.

Healer's DPS without a doubt outweight tanks in big pulls, thats why I really like PLDs that know what they are doing, even if their DPS isnt great. My personal prefference is:

Big pulls: Tank stance, use your defensive CDs, mitigate damage. If you are a great tanker that knows how to use CDs and be agressive at same time, then go ahead and stance dance with me.
Small pulls/Bosses: Be agressive if you want, specially if you can push good DPS numbers.

[Bixillarla]

In my experience in the Duty Finder, I'm not so sure. When queuing without a healer (either myself healing or a friend doing so), I see far more healers that don't DPS than those that do—but that's something that's going to vary based on Data Center and a ton of other factors, too.

Same, most the healers I run into in the Duty Finder do not DPS.

[RickXRolled]

I have been loving this thread all week, following the back and forth(and sideways; a lot of derailment if you actually read through it) and had to share with my FC healer pool. I'm not a healer myself, but they brought up a great point that I know has been echoed across a lot of pages here. Any player that does not take full advantage of their tool kit is either a) still learning or b) has not learn enough about it yet. Not utilizing Cleric's Stance would be like myself, as a Warrior, not utilizing either Defiance or Deliverance. I know some people will say Defiance doesn't count but hear me out; With an i205 weapon, and my gear ilvl being 201, I can possibly still tank any roulette duty without Defiance. Does it make the pull easier? No. Does it help my team of 3-7 ppl? Definitely no, but it is possible. Why I would do such a thing and not utilize my tool kit properly is beyond the scope of reason, in the same line as a healer not utilizing their full tool kit for any encounter. Personal playing preference is not an argument in the strictest sense here; You have the abilities, and not using them properly is making you a "bad" player. Once you learn to utilize them properly, you're being a "good" player. It's really that simple.

Report this guy for voicing reason in this illogical cesspool of a forum!

[Kallera]

Report this guy for voicing reason in this illogical cesspool of a forum!

Well, it sounds like reason, but then you get into the concept of bad and good players and how they should be treated.

[Iagainsti]

Report this guy for voicing reason in this illogical cesspool of a forum!

Reported. What was he thinking?! No room for logic in this circus!

/endthread

[Eothas]

/endthread

No.

We need 4 more pages.