The arrogance of some people

[Odett]

Still don't see how this was catering to the BLM. People are acting you're not supposed to double DoT in this fight and people "inflated" their own dps. All the dps in that run were still at the top of their own performance brackets.

Is bringing in 3 BRDs to a raid for the sole purpose of constantly having Foe's Requiem up not something that caters solely to a magic DPS's damage output?

[Kallera]

Just wanted to come in and ask that, how does fulfilling your role as a healer by not letting people die while dishing out as much DPS as you can, not make you a better player than someone who just keeps everyone alive?....

Well, while I do not play healer, I do think this has something to do with the trinity. if a dps had the abilities of healing the party, or could tank reliably, and it was expected of them to do their part along with help tanks and healers while they dps in order to succeed, is it really the trinity anymore?

(But they don't do as high numbers as well!)

So? Those numbers, while not high, are being expected. So if its okay for tanks and healers to encroach on dps performance, why can't dps classes do the same? I would certainly love to see dancer make an entrance, and this might as well be the reason.

[KaitlanKela]

I will try once again to summarize this for people:

If you do not DPS as a healer 99/100 people are not going to care and just let you carry on. Nobody is attacking your personal preference or your playstyle. Do what you're going to do.

People are just trying to say that if you arbitrarily self-impose a limit on yourself, you will not be the best player you can be. The game gives you healing and dps, it gives you objectives, it gives you priorities. It does NOT tell you how to play your toon. It done not impose any limits on how you use your kit, what spells to hit and what spells to avoid. If you don't use your whole toolkit appropriately, you are either 1. learning 2. lazy or 3.bad. Nobody's saying you CAN'T be learning, lazy or bad, get out we don't want your kind here. We're only trying to encourage players who DO try to be the best they can be to not limit themselves for NO REASON.

The end.

[MagiusNecros]

Well, while I do not play healer, I do think this has something to do with the trinity. if a dps had the abilities of healing the party, or could tank reliably, and it was expected of them to do their part along with help tanks and healers while they dps in order to succeed, is it really the trinity anymore?

It's because in some cases the trinity has failed. It's not about each role sticking to their role. As time goes on it's all about each class using all their abilities to do all 3 at once to the best of their ability. The only thing that hasn't changed is classes specialized in one role have abilities to fulfill that role the best. Healers provide the best healing, tanks aggro control and damage mitigation, and DPS on damage. All 3 roles all have a form of contributing to the roles other classes specialize in.

[Odett]

Well, while I do not play healer, I do think this has something to do with the trinity. if a dps had the abilities of healing the party, or could tank reliably, and it was expected of them to do their part along with help tanks and healers while they dps in order to succeed, is it really the trinity anymore?

We're dealing with "if's" here, though. DPS can't reliably heal others, or tank effectively, because they lack the abilities to do so. We play using a trinity, but it's worth to see what your job can do outside the trinity task that you're assigned in order to push boundaries and help out your group members more, because ultimately, that's your real job: to help your other group members the most you can. Healers can do this because they are not required to heal all the time. It's not just limited to healers, however. For example, if I run a dungeon as a PLD and my healer is DPSing, I'll tell them that I will Clemency myself because PLD AoE damage is nearly nonexistent sans Circle of Scorn, that way or group can clear pulls in a more effective manner. Granted, I can't Clemency myself forever, but it's a nice thing you can do as a task outside your assigned role in the trinity in order to make up for my lack of AoE DPS.

It's better to look at the trinity and your job in it as the absolute minimum that is required of you, and it helps your group when you strive to perform tasks beyond what is required. I hope I understood your question correctly.

So? Those numbers, while not high, are being expected. So if its okay for tanks and healers to encroach on dps performance, why can't dps classes do the same? I would certainly love to see dancer make an entrance, and this might as well be the reason.

I answered that in the first paragraph of this post. Also, a SCH's DPS can be very close with that of a DPS role, so it IS quite substantial.

[Tilgung]

So? Those numbers, while not high, are being expected. So if its okay for tanks and healers to encroach on dps performance, why can't dps classes do the same? I would certainly love to see dancer make an entrance, and this might as well be the reason.

The issue with Dancer, if it were primarily a DPS with good healing utility, is that it would probably never be used in progression raiding. Mantra, back during 2.X raiding was a sorta big deal and made MNK a really attractive choice, along with highest single target DPS (by a fair margin) and Dragon Kick's debuff. Current heal checks aren't particularly difficult and Mantra is basically just filler at this point. Dancer's healing utility would basically be the same, unless the raid tier it was introduced in was very heal check reliant.

[KaitlanKela]

Again, why are we still talking about the "trinity"? I have explained this before - the trinity is only something used by the queue to group people in duty finder with a diverse enough combined skill set to clear the instance. That's it. It doesn't tell you anything about playing your class. Nothing at all. Rather, the duty objectives are listed for you and they are the same for your whole team. Use your toolkit to help progress through the instance. Preferably your WHOLE toolkit, as using all of it gives you the most utility, obviously.

If the trinty is so all-important and should never, ever be violated, explain this phrase: "This composition is not imposed upon pre-formed parties".

[Odett]

Again, why are we still talking about the "trinity"? I have explained this before - the trinity is only something used by the queue to group people in duty finder with a diverse enough combined skill set to clear the instance. That's it. It doesn't tell you anything about playing your class. Nothing at all. Rather, the duty objectives are listed for you and they are the same for your whole team. Use your toolkit to help progress through the instance. Preferably your WHOLE toolkit, as using all of it gives you the most utility, obviously.

If the trinty is so all-important and should never, ever be violated, explain this phrase: "This composition is not imposed upon pre-formed parties".

I feel like this post should be sticky'd in the first page and anyone entering this thread should read it before they post something.

[Kaurie]

Well, while I do not play healer, I do think this has something to do with the trinity. if a dps had the abilities of healing the party, or could tank reliably, and it was expected of them to do their part along with help tanks and healers while they dps in order to succeed, is it really the trinity anymore?

It is less to do with the trinity design of the jobs, and more the trinity design of encounters.

For example, many DPS jobs do have some limited tanking abilities (swiftfoot on MNK, Titan on SMN, Manawall on BLM etc). They could design encounters where a DPS would be required to use these things in order to successfully complete the dungeon. However, DPS are not equal in their ability to do that, so the dev team keeps the encounter design simplistic, so that any combination of players could complete it.

[UBERHAXED]

Is bringing in 3 BRDs to a raid for the sole purpose of constantly having Foe's Requiem up not something that caters solely to a magic DPS's damage output?

There weren't 3 bards in the actual raid fight that was linked (Oppressor). Not that that's even relevant. I think you're caring a bit too much about individual dps bonuses, rather than complementary bonuses that in turn help the raid dps.