The arrogance of some people

[Tilgung]

Also lol I like how you intentionally chose the boss with the most mandatory downtime because it was convenient. No "padding" here:
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/serve...atest/#boss=18
Pretty sure that beats your "top end DPS aren't even popping out 1500 DPS." by over 300.

Those Oppressor parses are no jump oppressors, so no downtime either. At worst, those BLM/SMN/BRD had to side step 4 times, while being able to double DoT. Hence the 200 DPS loss compared to actually dummy Faust. Try again.

Also, not cheesing? Rotating Battle Voiced Foe's Requiem, Royal Road Balance on a single character, lining up Battle Litany and Trick Attack for optimum damage for a single job is a thing.

[TaleraRistain]

What you people always ignore for some reason is that nobody is forcing healers to dps when they are not comfortable doing so. We are asking healers who stand around doing nothing because not much healing is needed to add to the group effort.

How do you know someone standing around isn't having latency issues? Or they are not at that aforesaid comfort level? One unfortunate thing I see with DF is that a lot of parties don't talk. So often when there are threads like this, someone says they didn't see the healer DPSing and come in trashing them and calling them lazy and bad. I really hate this kind of attitude. I support encouraging and offering helpful tips. I myself am a DPSing healer. I absolutely love stance dancing. I encourage my fellow fc healers to try it and see if it is something they would be comfortable doing. But I hate it when one of them tells me someone trashed them because they didn't feel comfortable dpsing.

[Alahra]

I'm much more likely to be watching YouTube on the side during runs when I can dps full time due to how boring it gets. "Tap fairy spam macro, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio, 6 Broil, refresh DoTs, Shadowflare and fairy spam and Broil ad infinitum". I don't get how people can find that fun personally but...

You're not the only one. I was a main SCH in ARR before NIN came out and maintained it as my second-best geared job after that point, and I came to realize I was boring myself to tears on it in level 60 dungeons. I think it'd be a much different situation if they had added things to SCH's gameplay that change things in 4-mans—their post-50 tools just don't particularly change anything for them outside of 8-man environments.

[KaitlanKela]

snip

1) The vast majority of people don't even bring it up when there's a healer not DPSing. They just move on regardless because it's easier.
2) If it gets brought up, is it so much to ask that people communicate that they're new/learning/having latency/not comfortable, etc?
3) The GREAT GREAT majority of players are not going to ream you for learning or having latency if that's what it is, only the douchiest of douches. You're better off being kicked.

Besides, this thread is not about healer's being UNCOMFORTABLE. Or have you still missed that even though it's been said a million times? Even in your quoted text.

It's a problem, however, when people come to the official forums spreading misinformation and excusing lazy play. For example, when I was a new player I didn't know DPS was the expectation. I clicked on a thread not unlike this one where the OP was upset that someone had asked they DPS. I actually READ the thread. I digested the argument. I agreed that if I was a good enough player to heal everyone, why should I waste my time instead of contributing to the group? I was thoroughly glad that people had corrected the OP so and I avoided having to learn the hard way in game.

So for the sake of others like me, would you please stop excusing this behavior and confusing the issue so we can all get on the same page here and send a clear message? Thanks.

These two statements directly contradict each other. The difference isn't "objective" or "demonstrable". It's just a personal preference.

I've reached my limit, but I'm going to reply to this post below because it is such an egregious misrepresentation of what I said.

Of course those two statements contradict, because you've edited out where I demonstrated the latter and disproved the former. Good job.

Speed of the run is a courtesy to your team. In so much as your team tolerates you deliberately making the run slower for no reason, then it IS only a playstyle difference. However, there's no reason to only consider just that. The real issue is that you are choosing not to contribute toward the shared team objective when you could be. That makes you a sub-optimal player. Is it okay to be a sub-optimal player: YES. I've said it numerous times. The harassment/kick rate for non-DPS healers is grossly inflated to the reality. However, we were discussing what makes an optimal player. A good player, reagardless of role, will use their whole toolkit to clear the instance. No other role gets away with only using half their kit. Why should healers get a pass?

Regarding people pushing their healers who can't keep up: is it so much to communicate? Really? On everyone's part? Could the tank be like, "hey, doing massive pulls, okay?" and if they wipe don't do that again. Could a learning healer be like "Hey, I'm still new so I'm going to focus heal." Tank notices healer is only healing and standing around. PRESUMING that he has a massive problem with is (which isn't always the case anyway) he could say, "Hey, healer, are you new? Would you like some advice on DPS? Would you like us to pull less so you can practice?" Etc. Seriously, it's a multiplayer cooperative game. Minimal communication should have been an expectation upon purchase.

Regarding your last paragraph: I've said this so much it's like a broken record, but okay. Where in the game does it impose these "focuses" on you? I never had an npc tell me "You should focus on healing to the exclusion of everything else". The "role" as in the color of your icon is for queueing purposes only, practically speaking. It tells you exactly jack about how to play your class. Rather, the game gives you a list of objectives to complete. You're expected to use your toolkit to complete them. That is literally it.

[Niwashi]

this whole discussion is about healers who are capable of DPSing safely and choose not to, as opposed to learning healers who can't, so we're assuming that case away with the premises of the conversation

No, the conversation is not wholly (perhaps not even primarily) about cases where it doesn't matter. The reason this discussion keeps coming up is because people keep pushing healers who cannot reliably keep a group up while DPSing 90% of the time to do so anyway. And because a lot of healers themselves have become more interested in their DPS than in their healing. A lot of groups keep wiping because of it, and in many cases, it's for DPS that isn't even necessary to the run's objectives.

More conservative playstyles will still get you the clear, but more slowly. If that's all you consider, then they two playstyles are basically interchangeable.
<snip>
However, stop trying to tell people that both playstyles are equally valid because they are objectively and demonstrably not.

These two statements directly contradict each other. The difference isn't "objective" or "demonstrable". It's just a personal preference. The main difference between the two playstyles is speed of the overall run, and that is NOT an objective in any dungeon, apart from needing to finish in 90 minutes or so. So long as it's within that instance server limit, any preference for clearing a dungeon more quickly or more slowly is just a personal stylistic preference with no in-game incentives either way.

Now, occasionally, healer DPS can in fact help towards meeting the dungeon's objectives, but that usually only comes up if the damage dealers themselves are inexperienced or drastically undergeared. If a boss fight includes a DPS check phase, and the damage dealers have a hard time clearing that DPS check on their own, then additional damage coming from the tank and healer can make that mechanic go a lot more smoothly. For that specific case, I'd agree that healers who can DPS as well are benefiting the group by doing so.

What you said about trying to make the game more fun is certainly true. But "fun" isn't nearly as fixed as you seem to think. Sure, some players have chosen to race as fast as they can as a way to add additional challenge to dungeons. And this has become particularly popular as widespread overgearing has diluted a lot of the original challenge. But it's not everyone's preference. Some players work towards making a run go as quickly as possible. Others work towards making it go as smoothly as possible. A slow run where you take the time to have fun with it is every bit as valid as a speedrun. faster =/= better

So, sure, there are some cases where a healer should DPS if they're able to. If it's going to help clear a DPS check mechanic, then that's useful to the group. The rest of the time, many healers like to add in some DPS and speed up the run a bit, and that's good too, so long as they don't let it distract them from their primary function. But there's a pretty huge difference between saying "I like to do things this way" and saying "Everyone should do things this way."

There is no content outside bleeding edge raid content that is even designed around a requirement for the second DPS player to DPS. That doesn't mean that it's ok for them not to.

I'm pretty sure it actually is designed to need two damage dealers to clear 4 man content. The thing is that it's designed to need two if they're at the minimum level and gear. It's often possible (in some cases quite easy in fact) for just one player who's drastically overleveled and overgeared to cover for both of them, but that's not what it's designed for. It was designed for two players to be focusing on damage, one to be focusing on holding aggro (which includes damage as well), and one to be focusing on healing.

[RiceisNice]

No, the conversation is not wholly (perhaps not even primarily) about cases where it doesn't matter. The reason this discussion keeps coming up is because people keep pushing healers who cannot reliably keep a group up while DPSing 90% of the time to do so anyway. And because a lot of healers themselves have become more interested in their DPS than in their healing. A lot of groups keep wiping because of it, and in many cases, it's for DPS that isn't even necessary to the run's objectives..

I've been keeping up with the discussion a bit, and while it's not "wholly" the point, its still there non the less, and it's being brought up. When you cast it aside or outright ignore it, it throws statements out of context, which is why we keep having this back and fourth.

These two statements directly contradict each other. The difference isn't "objective" or "demonstrable". It's just a personal preference. The main difference between the two playstyles is speed of the overall run, and that is NOT an objective in any dungeon, apart from needing to finish in 90 minutes or so. So long as it's within that instance server limit, any preference for clearing a dungeon more quickly or

A healer that can both heal (and keep the tank alive) and dps is objectively making the run go faster,, that's really not up for debate. You're essentially repeating what your quoted person is saying

I'm pretty sure it actually is designed to need two damage dealers to clear 4 man content. The thing is that it's designed to need two if they're at the minimum level and gear. It's often possible (in some cases quite easy in fact) for just one player who's drastically overleveled and overgeared to cover for both of them, but that's not what it's designed for. It was designed for two players to be focusing on damage, one to be focusing on holding aggro (which includes damage as well), and one to be focusing on healing.

Even at minimum ilvl, there are very few, if any, dungeons that enforce a hard or even soft enrage that puts pressure on dps, and they certainly don't have enough outgoing damage (maintank or partywide) that the healer will run dry, esp if it's a scholar. You can very well clear most of the dungeons with just a tank and healer even within the 90 minute timer in some cases. Whether or not you want to is a different story.

[Odett]

I'm pretty sure it actually is designed to need two damage dealers to clear 4 man content. The thing is that it's designed to need two if they're at the minimum level and gear. It's often possible (in some cases quite easy in fact) for just one player who's drastically overleveled and overgeared to cover for both of them, but that's not what it's designed for. It was designed for two players to be focusing on damage, one to be focusing on holding aggro (which includes damage as well), and one to be focusing on healing.

There is not a single dungeon before level 50 that requires a second DPS to meet any type of any type of check. When doing lv 50 dungeons, a DPS that plays like they should will carry a 2nd DPS that doesn't know what they're doing. Yes, it's designed to need 2 DPS if we're at the minimum item level, but the game's gear creep means we're already overgeared whenever new casual content comes out, and even if the 2 DPS don't have a semblance of what a rotation is, a good tank and healer can carry them.

"It was designed for two players to be focusing on damage, one to be focusing on holding aggro (which includes damage as well), and one to be focusing on healing."

But we've obviously gone beyond that at this point. It doesn't matter what content was "designed for" when you can clear said content with unorthodox group compositions, or even without 2 DPS, even if it takes longer. It doesn't matter if content was "designed" for one player to focus on healing when they find themselves with enough downtime to stand there doing absolutely nothing. You don't ignore your skills or playing better when you have the ability to, simply because content does not call for a certain amount of skill. That is a downright mediocre and half-assed way to think, and the fact that so many players think like this goes to explain why a large chunk of people are not capable of doing endgame content.

[Iagainsti]

I love this thread. Please continue.

[Judge_Xero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHp7thH0vA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IyY0DoH75o

Like most team games, "It's not my job" just isn't a great excuse.

[UBERHAXED]

Those Oppressor parses are no jump oppressors, so no downtime either. At worst, those BLM/SMN/BRD had to side step 4 times, while being able to double DoT. Hence the 200 DPS loss compared to actually dummy Faust. Try again.

Also, not cheesing? Rotating Battle Voiced Foe's Requiem, Royal Road Balance on a single character, lining up Battle Litany and Trick Attack for optimum damage for a single job is a thing.

Lining up cooldowns for party member's cooldowns is called team work? Why would you intentionally not use trick attack when your teammates are using all their cool downs. And you missed the big point in the oppressors. They had no jumps dps was good. Are you intentionally being oblivious? "But they cheesed the fight by having no jumps so the dps is good!" Really dude? Rotating Foe's and using Royal Road Balance on their best dps? No kidding, it would be a waste to use it on someone not the highest dps in the party. I think you're running out of stuff to argue. AS1 is a real raid. The intention for every fight is to have as close to the dummy rotation as possible. Not running around using scathe. Not sure why you're so bent on proving that the thousands of players who do higher than your alleged maximum are all fake and no one can possibly be better than your own crappy numbers.