The arrogance of some people

[Niwashi]

I've been keeping up with the discussion a bit, and while it's not "wholly" the point, its still there non the less, and it's being brought up. When you cast it aside or outright ignore it, it throws statements out of context, which is why we keep having this back and fourth.

Yes, and that's pretty much what I've said myself earlier. KaitlanKela tried saying that the whole discussion was about only one situation, when in fact it's about multiple situations, and that's why everyone keeps disagreeing about it. It's not wholly about either.

A healer that can both heal (and keep the tank alive) and dps is objectively making the run go faster,, that's really not up for debate. You're essentially repeating what your quoted person is saying

Everybody agreed that, when done well, it makes the run go faster. What we disagreed on was whether that makes it objectively and demonstrably better. Speed that doesn't contribute towards any objective is no different from anything else that doesn't contribute towards an objective. The message I was replying to talked about how it was more fun, and about how it could speed things up, but then tried to use those purely personal preference issues as evidence to conclude that it was therefore objectively and demonstrably a more valid playstyle.

But that's the thing about personal preferences — not everyone has the same ones, and that's why they're not considered objective. One player might think DPSing as a healer makes it more fun. Another might think it makes it less fun. One player might like runs to go faster. Another might like runs to go slower. There are plenty of players who prefer a smooth run over a hectic one.

If there's an actual in-game reason for needing damage to come faster (e.g. a difficult DPS check), then that qualifies as an objective reason for wanting the healer to help with DPS. But the rest of the time, it's just a personal choice.

Speed of the run is a courtesy to your team.

That depends on your team. If they all want a fast run, then certainly, speeding it up is a courtesy to them. If they'd prefer a slower more relaxed run, then it isn't.

[KaitlanKela]

That depends on your team. If they all want a fast run, then certainly, speeding it up is a courtesy to them. If they'd prefer a slower more relaxed run, then it isn't.

Okay, the thread has been primarily about people choosing not to, but if you're going to split hairs, fine. Yes, there are some people who can't DPS and heal. I love how I addressed that and it was ignored and you picked this one quote. In fact, I've addressed it several times over the last couple pages, but that really wouldn't fit your narrative, would it? The truth of speed being a courtesy to your team is OBVIOUS, but of course to pull the "personal preference" special snowflake card which literally cannot be debated at all. I guess you win. Except that bit about communicating your expectations to your teammates, which is common sense, common courtesy and you completely ignored and didn't respond to that part of my post.

I've been fairly civil this whole thread, but I'm frustrated by you because I feel like you edit out/avoid all of the logic in my posts and counter with "whateva whatever ppl do what they want". Even that point I agreed with already so I honestly have NO CLUE what you're trying to add to the discussion here.

[Niwashi]

Except that bit about communicating your expectations to your teammates, which is common sense, common courtesy and you completely ignored and didn't respond to that part of my post.

I agreed with that part. Sorry, I tend to only quote the bits I have something to say about. Sometimes that means quoting just a single representative statement out of a longer argument. Other times it means points that were already covered I leave alone. In this case it was the later. I thought you'd made the point about more communication well enough yourself. But given that I was disagreeing with some of the other things you'd said, I should have clarified where there were points of agreement as well.

Yes, I agree that more communication between teammates to make sure everyone's on the same page, working towards the same goals, and with some understanding of each others' comfort levels, would go a long way towards solving these issues. (And would help with quite a few other issues as well, for that matter.)

The truth of speed being a courtesy to your team is OBVIOUS, but of course to pull the "personal preference" special snowflake card which literally cannot be debated at all.

It's only obviously a courtesy if speed is indeed your goal. Since it's not a goal that the game gives you, what else could it be besides a personal preference?

You, personally, like runs to go fast, so you think of speed as a benefit and therefore a courtesy to your team. And if the rest of your teammates also like fast runs, then for that particular team, you're right. But all of it is based just off of liking runs to go fast. Calling it obvious or demonstrable sounds as though you're the one claiming your preference in that matter should define everybody else's goals.

Another point that we agree on is that players should keep contributing toward the shared team objectives, but we disagree regarding how all that might be done. If speed is a shared team objective (which in many cases it is), then DPS is the path towards meeting that objective. But if instead the shared team objective is a smooth easy run that minimizes danger to the party while maximizing the chances of a successful clear (which is also a fairly common objective), then more role-focused conservative gameplay is better at fulfilling that goal.

I guess either way it comes back to the communication issue, so I get to end on a point that I think we agree about.
If you talk with your teammates at the outset of a run, and come to a consensus as to what your goals and strategies are going to be, then how best to heal that run becomes a whole lot clearer.

[Launched]

It's only obviously a courtesy if speed is indeed your goal. Since it's not a goal that the game gives you, what else could it be besides a personal preference?

In addition to helping everyone by getting them out of the dungeon faster, a healer DPSing will make the group clear actual fights faster which means there are less mechanics to do, less chance for people to run out of cooldowns/resources, less chances to make mistakes. Some healer DPS (Holy's stun, Shadowflare's slow) also has the side effect of reducing incoming damage on the tank, or in places like A3S, can slow enemies to give you more time to deal with them.

[Kallera]

In addition to helping everyone by getting them out of the dungeon faster, a healer DPSing will make the group clear actual fights faster which means there are less mechanics to do, less chance for people to run out of cooldowns/resources, less chances to make mistakes.

I'm glad I leveled dps first then, because I'm sure this would have confused me too if I started as conjurer.

[Eul]

I'm glad I leveled dps first then, because I'm sure this would have confused me too if I started as conjurer.

I doubt people gonna force you to dps on low level dungeon (At least on my data center). When I first time leveling conjurer, I rarely have time to dps because of "urge to make tank's HP full" lol.

[Niwashi]

In addition to helping everyone by getting them out of the dungeon faster, a healer DPSing will make the group clear actual fights faster which means there are less mechanics to do, less chance for people to run out of cooldowns/resources, less chances to make mistakes.

Valid points in many cases. But my main point was that they're not universal. So, looking at those ones one at a time:

getting out of the dungeon faster: A help if you want out quickly. But there are some dungeons I've run many many times over and never really gotten to even see what they look like because we were always racing past everything. It'd be really nice to be able to stay a bit longer and get the time to really see them once in a while.

less mechanics to do: The mechanics are the fun part. It's boring to just burn through every boss the same way. Plus there's the fact that many of the dungeons whose mechanics are now routinely skipped are low level learning dungeons designed for teaching new players how mechanics work. The biggest reason why so many players end up in endgame (or at least late game) dungeons totally clueless about how to handle mechanics is because the simple version of those mechanics are too often skipped in the earlier dungeons that are supposed to be teaching them.

less chance for people to run out of cooldowns/resources: But in a long fight, most of your cooldowns will come up again. And a lot of conservative gameplay focuses on making sure you're recuperating your resources as fast as you use them (though a lot of that is coming from the damage dealers' support skills rather than from the healer).

less chances to make mistakes: Some people in this thread have been advocating that healers are best when they're pushing the edge, getting in every possible point of damage they can manage, skirting the edge of letting players die without quite going over that line. That approach is creating more chances for serious mistakes, not less.
(Note: This last argument applies only to the drive to maximize healer DPS, not the one about wanting healers to do a bit of DPS in downtime when they'd otherwise be idle. I don't really have any problem with the later.)

Some healer DPS (Holy's stun, Shadowflare's slow) also has the side effect of reducing incoming damage on the tank, or in places like A3S, can slow enemies to give you more time to deal with them.

Ok, yes, I can agree with these. We could add debuf utility along with helping meet DPS checks as cases where it's useful.

[RiceisNice]

less chances to make mistakes: Some people in this thread have been advocating that healers are best when they're pushing the edge, getting in every possible point of damage they can manage, skirting the edge of letting players die without quite going over that line. That approach is creating more chances for serious mistakes, not less.
(Note: This last argument applies only to the drive to maximize healer DPS, not the one about wanting healers to do a bit of DPS in downtime when they'd otherwise be idle. I don't really have any problem with the later.)

Just to chime in on this , incoming damage to a tank can get very, very predictable, especially when it corelates to the tank's (lack) of tanking stance or cooldown utilization. Best example I can come up with is SMA's bee boss where you don't really need to top them off after. Every bit of damage down to the auto attack and "mini-tank buster" comes at a predictable interval; best example I can come up with is SMA's bosses where I practically do not need a heal on my warrior up until after the first breath sweep, or the bee boss after it's first mini-tank buster.

less mechanics to do: The mechanics are the fun part. It's boring to just burn through every boss the same way. Plus there's the fact that many of the dungeons whose mechanics are now routinely skipped are low level learning dungeons designed for teaching new players how mechanics work. The biggest reason why so many players end up in endgame (or at least late game) dungeons totally clueless about how to handle mechanics is because the simple version of those mechanics are too often skipped in the earlier dungeons that are supposed to be teaching them.

Semantics, but realistically speaking a lot of bosses don't have that many engaging mechanics to begin with, even in context of new expert dungeons that players have already queued for. Granted it's a bigger underlying problem (the dungeon in general being undertuned relative to the level sync, or when a typical player can access it), but you can't honest-to-goodness say that a lot of the low level dungeons have "interesting" mechanics even if you were to take away the overkilling of it, and it really doesn't punish the players enough to the point that they can fail every mechanic and still get a pass. Aside from that, the "simple version" mechanics are ones that are reoccuring throughout the game, not specifically to the boss fights (telegraphed AoEs for example); I wouldn't go as far to say that it's the reason why players fail in endgame dungeons because they're clueless on mechanics.

[Kaurie]

Valid points in many cases. But my main point was that they're not universal. So, looking at those ones one at a time:

getting out of the dungeon faster: A help if you want out quickly. But there are some dungeons I've run many many times over and never really gotten to even see what they look like because we were always racing past everything. It'd be really nice to be able to stay a bit longer and get the time to really see them once in a while.

less mechanics to do: The mechanics are the fun part. It's boring to just burn through every boss the same way. Plus there's the fact that many of the dungeons whose mechanics are now routinely skipped are low level learning dungeons designed for teaching new players how mechanics work. The biggest reason why so many players end up in endgame (or at least late game) dungeons totally clueless about how to handle mechanics is because the simple version of those mechanics are too often skipped in the earlier dungeons that are supposed to be teaching them.

less chance for people to run out of cooldowns/resources: But in a long fight, most of your cooldowns will come up again. And a lot of conservative gameplay focuses on making sure you're recuperating your resources as fast as you use them (though a lot of that is coming from the damage dealers' support skills rather than from the healer).

less chances to make mistakes: Some people in this thread have been advocating that healers are best when they're pushing the edge, getting in every possible point of damage they can manage, skirting the edge of letting players die without quite going over that line. That approach is creating more chances for serious mistakes, not less.
(Note: This last argument applies only to the drive to maximize healer DPS, not the one about wanting healers to do a bit of DPS in downtime when they'd otherwise be idle. I don't really have any problem with the later.)



Ok, yes, I can agree with these. We could add debuf utility along with helping meet DPS checks as cases where it's useful.

Niwashi, you are picking at straws. From this strain of reasoning, one could say there is no such thing as objective reasoning. Even how we interpret the world is based off of our subjective perspective. The argument you are trying to make isn't a good one, it's more or less a semantics argument that should be saved for a debate on some university class on the Philosophy of MMO Dungeon Running.

It's really out of place in this thread. It doesn't help support the notion that healers should or shouldn't DPS.

[Niwashi]

realistically speaking a lot of bosses don't have that many engaging mechanics to begin with

Well, even simple mechanics are more interesting than none. I can't think of a case where being able to skip a mechanic makes the game more fun rather than less. There might be one somewhere, but if so, I'd think it would be unusual rather than the norm. Most of the time, skipping mechanics seems to be about making the game more boring in exchange for getting it over with a little quicker.

The argument you are trying to make isn't a good one, it's more or less a semantics argument that should be saved for a debate on some university class on the Philosophy of MMO Dungeon Running.

If you think it's an argument that should be saved for a debate on some university class on the Philosophy of MMO Dungeon Running, apart from not being in a university, that's pretty much what this whole thread is. We're debating the approach to running dungeons. So I don't see how that makes it out of place.

And I'm a bit confused as to why you referred to it as being a semantics argument. (Though, ironically, now this question itself is going to be semantic, about your use of the word "semantic".) Either that word doesn't mean what you think it means, or else you're reading something into my posts that's not what I wrote, and I'm a bit curious as to which of those is the case. A semantics argument is one that shifts into discussing the meaning of words that are used to describe a situation rather than discussing the situation itself. Occasionally that's a necessary sideline if it seems part of the disagreement comes from different people interpreting words differently. Other times it just distracts from the main point. But up until this paragraph, nothing I've written in this thread was about what different terms mean. Simply taking a series of statements and addressing each one individually, as I did in the post you quoted, doesn't make a discussion of the points being made into a semantics argument.