The arrogance of some people

[KaitlanKela]

Okay, the more I think about it, the more I think the only heal mentality is wrong.

Seriously, the Healer is going to spam heals and babysit the tank so the tank never has to use cooldowns or try either? It's like that playstyle deliberately saps all the fun out of the game for half the party.

/sigh I'm out.

[Odett]

Okay, the more I think about it, the more I think the only heal mentality is wrong.

Seriously, the Healer is going to spam heals and babysit the tank so the tank never has to use cooldowns or try either? It's like that playstyle deliberately saps all the fun out of the game for half the party.

/sigh I'm out.

Yeah that's why I don't agree with the "if you're gonna heal spam me, I'm gonna play sub-par as well". You're not really winning, you're more thank likely proving your healer right.

[Tint]

Seriously, the Healer is going to spam heals and babysit the tank so the tank never has to use cooldowns or try either? It's like that playstyle deliberately saps all the fun out of the game for half the party.

noooo, the thing that saps out all the fun out of the game is the fact that we are already 40! ilvl higher than we should for ALL content besides thordan ex and alex savage. that makes this game waay to easy. and that's also the problem with the healer dps debatte: if you are that overgeared you don't really need a healer, that's why the healer is staying around. but that's also the reason you don't need defensive cooldowns as a tank, because you are that overgeared... THAT'S the reason nobody has fun. we have build a workaround with these masspulls to keep the fun in the dungeons, but since 3.0 the tanks and healers are so overpowered with the new skills and the huge ilvl increase (from 150 to 210 in one patch xD) that this workaround doesn't longer work.

and if the only way to have fun in the game is to play a healer in the intention to NOT heal i think we have a problem here...

and to clarify this: i can agree that a healer should throw in damage in his downtimes and not staying around doing nothing. but creating this downtimes by simply not healing when the tank gets damage is a different story.

[KaitlanKela]

snip

You can blame it all on game design and outgearing content all you want. That's missing the point.

The point is about risk/reward. Riskier playstyles pay off with faster clear times, regardless of gear (unless you wipe, but this whole discussion is about healers who are capable of DPSing safely and choose not to, as opposed to learning healers who can't, so we're assuming that case away with the premises of the conversation). More conservative playstyles will still get you the clear, but more slowly. If that's all you consider, then they two playstyles are basically interchangeable. I would still argue that healer DPS is preferred, but not so much to make the meta shun heal-only players like it totally does.

My point is that if you throw in the fact that healer dps is not mind-numbingly boring for two members of the party AND helps clear the dungeon faster, we now have a CLEAR winner to the point where the meta is against the alternative.

You complain that the players shouldn't have to MAKE a game fun. I disagree. It's an MMO and by that fact alone there are a virtually infinite amount of things you could do with your playtime, especially when you consider all the different approaches you could take. But if you tried to do them all you'd find some things are really AWESOME to you and some are crappy. It's up to YOU to find the activities and the playstyle that make it the most fun for you, since SE cannot cater to the whims of several hundred thousand people at once.

I will reiterate: play the way you want to to make it fun for you. I've said that all along. I will fight the people who say that you will always be kicked for it because actually that really only happens rarely and in the most difficult content. However, stop trying to tell people that both playstyles are equally valid because they are objectively and demonstrably not.

[Niwashi]

this whole discussion is about healers who are capable of DPSing safely and choose not to, as opposed to learning healers who can't, so we're assuming that case away with the premises of the conversation

No, the conversation is not wholly (perhaps not even primarily) about cases where it doesn't matter. The reason this discussion keeps coming up is because people keep pushing healers who cannot reliably keep a group up while DPSing 90% of the time to do so anyway. And because a lot of healers themselves have become more interested in their DPS than in their healing. A lot of groups keep wiping because of it, and in many cases, it's for DPS that isn't even necessary to the run's objectives.

More conservative playstyles will still get you the clear, but more slowly. If that's all you consider, then they two playstyles are basically interchangeable.
<snip>
However, stop trying to tell people that both playstyles are equally valid because they are objectively and demonstrably not.

These two statements directly contradict each other. The difference isn't "objective" or "demonstrable". It's just a personal preference. The main difference between the two playstyles is speed of the overall run, and that is NOT an objective in any dungeon, apart from needing to finish in 90 minutes or so. So long as it's within that instance server limit, any preference for clearing a dungeon more quickly or more slowly is just a personal stylistic preference with no in-game incentives either way.

Now, occasionally, healer DPS can in fact help towards meeting the dungeon's objectives, but that usually only comes up if the damage dealers themselves are inexperienced or drastically undergeared. If a boss fight includes a DPS check phase, and the damage dealers have a hard time clearing that DPS check on their own, then additional damage coming from the tank and healer can make that mechanic go a lot more smoothly. For that specific case, I'd agree that healers who can DPS as well are benefiting the group by doing so.

What you said about trying to make the game more fun is certainly true. But "fun" isn't nearly as fixed as you seem to think. Sure, some players have chosen to race as fast as they can as a way to add additional challenge to dungeons. And this has become particularly popular as widespread overgearing has diluted a lot of the original challenge. But it's not everyone's preference. Some players work towards making a run go as quickly as possible. Others work towards making it go as smoothly as possible. A slow run where you take the time to have fun with it is every bit as valid as a speedrun. faster =/= better

So, sure, there are some cases where a healer should DPS if they're able to. If it's going to help clear a DPS check mechanic, then that's useful to the group. The rest of the time, many healers like to add in some DPS and speed up the run a bit, and that's good too, so long as they don't let it distract them from their primary function. But there's a pretty huge difference between saying "I like to do things this way" and saying "Everyone should do things this way."

There is no content outside bleeding edge raid content that is even designed around a requirement for the second DPS player to DPS. That doesn't mean that it's ok for them not to.

I'm pretty sure it actually is designed to need two damage dealers to clear 4 man content. The thing is that it's designed to need two if they're at the minimum level and gear. It's often possible (in some cases quite easy in fact) for just one player who's drastically overleveled and overgeared to cover for both of them, but that's not what it's designed for. It was designed for two players to be focusing on damage, one to be focusing on holding aggro (which includes damage as well), and one to be focusing on healing.

[RiceisNice]

No, the conversation is not wholly (perhaps not even primarily) about cases where it doesn't matter. The reason this discussion keeps coming up is because people keep pushing healers who cannot reliably keep a group up while DPSing 90% of the time to do so anyway. And because a lot of healers themselves have become more interested in their DPS than in their healing. A lot of groups keep wiping because of it, and in many cases, it's for DPS that isn't even necessary to the run's objectives..

I've been keeping up with the discussion a bit, and while it's not "wholly" the point, its still there non the less, and it's being brought up. When you cast it aside or outright ignore it, it throws statements out of context, which is why we keep having this back and fourth.

These two statements directly contradict each other. The difference isn't "objective" or "demonstrable". It's just a personal preference. The main difference between the two playstyles is speed of the overall run, and that is NOT an objective in any dungeon, apart from needing to finish in 90 minutes or so. So long as it's within that instance server limit, any preference for clearing a dungeon more quickly or

A healer that can both heal (and keep the tank alive) and dps is objectively making the run go faster,, that's really not up for debate. You're essentially repeating what your quoted person is saying

I'm pretty sure it actually is designed to need two damage dealers to clear 4 man content. The thing is that it's designed to need two if they're at the minimum level and gear. It's often possible (in some cases quite easy in fact) for just one player who's drastically overleveled and overgeared to cover for both of them, but that's not what it's designed for. It was designed for two players to be focusing on damage, one to be focusing on holding aggro (which includes damage as well), and one to be focusing on healing.

Even at minimum ilvl, there are very few, if any, dungeons that enforce a hard or even soft enrage that puts pressure on dps, and they certainly don't have enough outgoing damage (maintank or partywide) that the healer will run dry, esp if it's a scholar. You can very well clear most of the dungeons with just a tank and healer even within the 90 minute timer in some cases. Whether or not you want to is a different story.

[Odett]

I'm pretty sure it actually is designed to need two damage dealers to clear 4 man content. The thing is that it's designed to need two if they're at the minimum level and gear. It's often possible (in some cases quite easy in fact) for just one player who's drastically overleveled and overgeared to cover for both of them, but that's not what it's designed for. It was designed for two players to be focusing on damage, one to be focusing on holding aggro (which includes damage as well), and one to be focusing on healing.

There is not a single dungeon before level 50 that requires a second DPS to meet any type of any type of check. When doing lv 50 dungeons, a DPS that plays like they should will carry a 2nd DPS that doesn't know what they're doing. Yes, it's designed to need 2 DPS if we're at the minimum item level, but the game's gear creep means we're already overgeared whenever new casual content comes out, and even if the 2 DPS don't have a semblance of what a rotation is, a good tank and healer can carry them.

"It was designed for two players to be focusing on damage, one to be focusing on holding aggro (which includes damage as well), and one to be focusing on healing."

But we've obviously gone beyond that at this point. It doesn't matter what content was "designed for" when you can clear said content with unorthodox group compositions, or even without 2 DPS, even if it takes longer. It doesn't matter if content was "designed" for one player to focus on healing when they find themselves with enough downtime to stand there doing absolutely nothing. You don't ignore your skills or playing better when you have the ability to, simply because content does not call for a certain amount of skill. That is a downright mediocre and half-assed way to think, and the fact that so many players think like this goes to explain why a large chunk of people are not capable of doing endgame content.