The arrogance of some people

[Kosmos992k]

Heaven forbid people try to get other people to improve.

If you are just healing and not DPSing in this game at all as a healer you must stand around an awful lot and not do anything.

I get that people may be new to healing, I get that people may not be as skilled at healing as some. But to stand around and not do anything just because "Herp a derp Im a healer, I only heal and not DPS" is the definition of being lazy.

You and others replying to me need to respond to what I said, not what you imagine I said, or want others to think I said.

I said nothing about not improving.I said nothing to suggest players should stand around and do nothing between heals if they feel they have the time and MP. I simply said that end-game meta has no place in regular content, and it truly doesn't. Healer DPS isn't going to take minutes off a run, it's just not that significant, so why stress so much about it?

Both you an Elazu apparently think that saying the end-game meta doesn't belong in regular content means I'm saying that mediocre play is OK, or that it's alright to do the bare minimum or worse. That's not what I am saying at all.

The end-game meta has no place in regular content.

However, in a team game, you have to work as a team. That means doing as much as you feel comfortable and able to do. For a healer, of course that means tossing out DoTs, Stone, or even Holy - IF there is time and you have MP to burn. However, team members should not be making demands of other players that they are uncomfortable with. It's not up to you to judge for another player whether they could, or should,have done more.

Unless someone is deliberately disrupting the run by deliberately playing sub-par, then you can't argue that they are intentionally wasting your time or hurting the group. All the arguments about wasting your time rely on a one way view of who's time or enjoyment matters. Both players have equal value in this regard. When you argue that another player must do something they are not comfortable with, you are placing your needs well above theirs.

As for this suggestion that this view means encouraging mediocrity, that's your twist on it, but it's not in fact true. Healers saying they do not want to play DPS, and if they did they'd have rolled as DPS doesn't mean that they will not throw out DoTs or that they will be mediocre; it simply means that they don't like to be told what to do. Guess what, nor do you, nor does anyone else. So thet's all stop trying to impose the end-game meta on people, and instead encourage better performance in a positive manner by offering praise and thanks when a player goes beyond the basics of their role. Believe it or not, positive reinforcement is far more effective than criticism.

[Eothas]

...

I kinda agree with most of what you have said, but...

Healer DPS isn't going to take minutes off a run

It will. A good healer can put 800~1k DPS in every trash pack. (Assuming a half-decent tank) and 400~700 DPS in a boss fight. If the tank is also doing good DPS its like adding another super competent DPS to the party.

[AeraLure]

I kinda agree with most of what you have said, but...



It will. A good healer can put 800~1k DPS in every trash pack. (Assuming a half-decent tank) and 400~700 DPS in a boss fight. If the tank is also doing good DPS its like adding another super competent DPS to the party.

Same, and yes, it does take minutes off a fight. It's something any healer looking to be a great healer should aspire to and general content, or at least EX, is the place to do it before entering raid content. A decent healer can pull those numbers and that absolutely is noticeable. If you're not comfortable doing it, new to being a healer, or aren't going to do it for whatever reason, and you are level 60, I still think it's pretty expected of you and if you won't be doing it, tell your group straight up before you start.

[Kosmos992k]

I kinda agree with most of what you have said, but...



It will. A good healer can put 800~1k DPS in every trash pack. (Assuming a half-decent tank) and 400~700 DPS in a boss fight. If the tank is also doing good DPS its like adding another super competent DPS to the party.

I understand that. I'm thinking in the context of Duty Finder, and PUGs,where the assumption is that all players are of average skill. In that situation, the healing requirement is relatively higher than in a skilled and well geared group running the same content. That reduces the scope that a healer has to safely DPS. In that situation, I don'tthink that the healers DPS will appreciably shorten the run. Actually, depending on the party composition, gearing and level of content, I'd say that coordinated damage dealing is more effective at shortening a run than healer dps.

I agree that if we're talking about a very good player playing healer with a decent group, there will be much more scope for that healer to maximize their damage dealing. So yes, in that circumstance a run could be appreciably shorter.

[Andrea]

stuff

I most likely got the wrong impression on your post then, sorry if what I took it as was not what you meant.

I wouldn't really say Im demanding anything, if it came across that way sorry. As I said in my post I get that people can be new and not great as a healer. Im fully ok with people taking their time and learning the basics first, those aren't really the healers I have problems with. We were all there at a stage after all , weren't we?

The healers I have a problem with are those geared in 210 and will sit around doing nothing or even jumping around while the party takes no damage.If you have time to jump around and run about you have the time to dot enemies. If people are happy to sit around doing nothing for 30-60 seconds at a time fine, it is their choice, I can't force people to play in a certain way. It also is my choice to consider those people lazy.

[Kosmos992k]

As I said in my post I get that people can be new and not great as a healer. Im fully ok with people taking their time and learning the basics first, those aren't really the healers I have problems with. We were all there at a stage after all , weren't we?

The healers I have a problem with are those geared in 210 and will sit around doing nothing or even jumping around while the party takes no damage.If you have time to jump around and run about you have the time to dot enemies. If people are happy to sit around doing nothing for 30-60 seconds at a time fine, it is their choice, I can't force people to play in a certain way. It also is my choice to consider those people lazy.

Completely agreed, and I apologize for any miscommunication or misunderstanding.

[Ashkendor]

No, the main part is that you can't compensate bad dps with healer's dps. Sure, healers can use cleric stance, but saying that healers have to dps just means that many of these 'pro healers' are not so pro, because healer's dps is connected with the equip and the skill level of the group (bad tank=no time for dps; dps that can't avoid aoe=no time for dps).

I actually beg to differ here. When I run my SCH with a friend's tank, if both DPS are poorly geared I just ask him to keep pulls reasonably sized so we can both maximize our damage. We both usually end up out-damaging the DPS in that case, which is fine. I get that undergeared people are in DF for tomes the same as I am and that doesn't bother me at all. I just do what I can to speed things up for everyone and in that case the healer DPS is inarguably speeding up the dungeon run.

Yes, there are situations where I can't reasonably DPS. Tanks that think they're too cool to use cooldowns make it exceedingly difficult. I was pleasantly surprised by a tank last night in Fractal that was all in i160 and i170 gear but he used his cooldowns and kept trash pulls to a reasonable size for his gear, which left me plenty of windows for DPS. DPS players standing in stupid aren't going to stop me from DPS'ing. Once or twice by accident I can accept, and I'll pop out of CS to heal if needed (hell, I don't even need to pop out of CS to use Leeches). After that they're at the mercy of Eos' whims and if they complain I'll pleasantly inform them that the floor candy is not tasty or nutritious, so could they please stop eating so much of it.

And in the moment you turn on cleric stance, one of the DPS jobs get a huge hit because he ignoed an aoe and you can't heal him up with just one heal because of clearic stance cool down.

That's what skills like Bloodbath, Life Surge, and Second Wind are for. DPS have survival tools at their disposal for those times they stand in stupid, or even when they take unavoidable damage. I've lost count of many times it's saved my skin to pop Bloodbath when huge raid-wide damage is going out. As a SCH, I typically leave healing DPS up to my fairy until the next AoE heal is needed (unless I know AoE damage or other dangerous mechanics are coming soon). As a WHM, I'll drop a Regen on them and let it do its thing (again, unless I know something is coming up that people need to be topped off for).

The entire party doesn't need to be at 100% hp 100% of the time. If the DPS sits at 50% for a little while because you're DPS'ing and you know it's safe because there's no AoE damage going out, that doesn't make you a bad healer. It means you know the encounter and you can do your job efficiently. That DPS doesn't do any less damage at 50% HP than he would at 100%. With all that said, if you aren't familiar with the fight, then yes I can see an argument for keeping the entire party topped off.

Healer DPS isn't going to take minutes off a run, it's just not that significant, so why stress so much about it?

That's patently untrue. A decently geared SCH or WHM can put out some pretty mean damage.

AST is a little less, but they can still throw some decent damage nonetheless.

[Whiteroom]

That's patently untrue. A decently geared SCH or WHM can put out some pretty mean damage.

Oh wow, she actually did say that. That shows a total lack of knowledge about the classes.

[Reisui]

Healer DPS isn't going to take minutes off a run, it's just not that significant, so why stress so much about it?

As a main healer this is hurting. I always thought I contributed by DPSing. I even take out adds alone during some boss fights. I received a bunch of everything, heal skils, support skills and DPS skills. I use them to the max, like it was intended.

[Odett]

As a main healer this is hurting. I always thought I contributed by DPSing. I even take out adds alone during some boss fights. I received a bunch of everything, heal skils, support skills and DPS skills. I use them to the max, like it was intended.

You ARE contributing a lot by DPSing and it is greatly appreciated by everyone in your group^^. The statement that you're quoting is extremely misinformed and just blatantly false.