Please be kind - Lowbie dungeon mini-rant

[Kosmos992k]

I hope it was just a isolated occurrence but I fear for the future new player if this way of going about is anything BUT an isolated occurrence.

I don't know how to implement or enforce a policy such as the one I am about to suggest, but I think that we really do need to do something to segregate the players speed running stuff in order to farm whatever farmable thing they need from those players running Duty Roulette to actually help new players. It would help new players immensely to have folks who want to help running those dungeons with them.

Perhaps the best thing is to alter the DR reward so that it's not something that is needed by players for their relic upgrade or gear upgrade, and is more of a horizontal progression reward. Maybe awarding a pair of rare dyes, or a MGP bonus as the reward instead of Tomes. I don't know what would work best, but giving tomes or anything else that has immediate application to the current relic upgrade path is counter productive to the intent of Duty Roulette, and for that matter it's counter to the intent behind the enhanced reward for running anything in Duty Finder with a 'new' player. Both DR and those enhanced rewards are intended as compensation to those players helping the new player. I do not honestly believe that the reward is deserved by anyone dragging new players through a speed run against their will, or who simply doesn't care to consider the new player's needs.

We all had the benefit of running stuff with people at the same level as us, or the same stage of the game. But as time passes, the lead pack of players becomes further removed from their own start in the game and cease considering the things that affect players who are just now starting. It's like they have forgotten what it felt like to be starting out, and lack any compassion or fellow feeling for the new players.

[Kaurie]

I don't know how to implement or enforce a policy such as the one I am about to suggest, but I think that we really do need to do something to segregate the players speed running stuff in order to farm whatever farmable thing they need from those players running Duty Roulette to actually help new players. It would help new players immensely to have folks who want to help running those dungeons with them.

Perhaps the best thing is to alter the DR reward so that it's not something that is needed by players for their relic upgrade or gear upgrade, and is more of a horizontal progression reward. Maybe awarding a pair of rare dyes, or a MGP bonus as the reward instead of Tomes. I don't know what would work best, but giving tomes or anything else that has immediate application to the current relic upgrade path is counter productive to the intent of Duty Roulette, and for that matter it's counter to the intent behind the enhanced reward for running anything in Duty Finder with a 'new' player. Both DR and those enhanced rewards are intended as compensation to those players helping the new player. I do not honestly believe that the reward is deserved by anyone dragging new players through a speed run against their will, or who simply doesn't care to consider the new player's needs.

We all had the benefit of running stuff with people at the same level as us, or the same stage of the game. But as time passes, the lead pack of players becomes further removed from their own start in the game and cease considering the things that affect players who are just now starting. It's like they have forgotten what it felt like to be starting out, and lack any compassion or fellow feeling for the new players.

I definitely like your idea. I feel the reward needs to be altered so that the conflicting incentives aren't there.

They could also just have any mobs exp that are not killed added to the completion exp. So, if you kill everything or don't kill everything you still get full exp.

Alternatively, they could add an option in the DF for "Newbie Friendly" or "Full Run" or whatever that you can tick, so that you are paired with like-minded individuals.

Nope, it wasn't directed at you, just the entire thread in general. By no means am I saying the grinder shouldn't be considered. But I'm saying, the fact that you've run a dungeon a hundred times doesn't all of a sudden give you the right to say the dungeon will automatically be a speed run at the newbies expense. Everyone started at some point, it's best to be considerate on all aspects. I can't tell you how many times I've run castrum and praetorium. I do understand the monotony and the want to speed run it regardless of how many new players are there. But if I see a newbie who shows up, says he's new and is willing to skip the cutscenes in order to learn the dungeon, I will forcefully slow the pace down a bit to help them. Though, I've very often gotten the backlash from this due to those elitists who can't be held up an extra 5 min to give a short explanation. In these cases, it almost always comes down to whether or not the other tank is on board with me or wants to rush as you can get through both with 4 experienced players honestly.

Ah for sure. I am not disagreeing with you. I often will stop and explain things to new players, as long as they speak up and say something. Or sometimes if I see the new bonus, I'll ask "Do you know what to do here?" etc.

I've definitely seen people race in without explanation, and I'll try to explain while we fight. It's very annoying, and I agree with that.

And the reason DF gives more reward is BECAUSE you are being queued up with randoms for a random dungeon run. It's to encourage players to play content they otherwise would forego so that newer players aren't screwed over and can still get through content.

The argument for DF giving reward as a purpose of rewarding helping new players is, in my opinion, not a very good argument. It may be the purpose of it, but it obviously doesn't work as intended. Telling someone they 'should' act in a way that they aren't isn't going to make them all of a sudden do that. You either need strict rules or rewards for the behaviour that you want.

The best way to go about this is rewarding behavior that you want. Unfortunately, the current system rewards the opposite. It provides the same reward despite the time taken, so naturally the best reward is for speed runs. If you really want to reward someone for helping out, add something similar to the commendation system only if you are new. Have it ask, rate the following player among "Did they go out of their way to help you learn this instance?" "Did they obstruct you from learning this instance?" If they say yes to the first, you get double the reward, if they say yes to the second you get 0 reward, if they say no to both you get normal rewards.

And I do not expect everyone to do what I do. I just personally like to go the extra mile to help new players as I like doing so. I agree that communication is key as I would prefer to speed run as well if no one HAS to do something specifically (like map the dungeon or just going for the xp).

And I usually gauge my pulls based on healer's ability after pulling small to start. If things go smooth, I'll pull more. If the healer seems to like DPS'ing and let's my hp drop to 1/3, I'll usually keep it to smaller pulls.

As for your note on the healer, as a healer, I'd also find this frustrating. I can adapt as a healer to the size of pulls, and will fit in as much DPS as I think I can handle. I know what skills I have on CD (bene/lustrate for example) and can time your hp to go down as such. Some times this means I'll let your HP drop to 20%, but I won't let you die. This doesn't mean I can't handle a larger pull or don't want you to pull larger.

But the difference in my "speed runs" compared to my regular are usually at most, 5 minutes difference. Sure, you can say that's a lot, but I can also say, majority of my wipes have come from "speed runs" and almost all of the times someone has abandoned a dungeon on me has been due to them as well. Speed runs require EVERYONE on your team to be up to par.
1. If tank can't hold aggro, the party's going to wipe.
2. If healer can't keep up with the dmg, the party is going to wipe.
3. If the DPS can't burn the mobs quick enough, the party is going to wipe because of 1 or 2 occurring due to lack of TP/MP.

It only takes a single weak link to cause wipe after wipe with speed runs (which then makes a run take 10 minutes LONGER than a normal run).

I guess our experiences differ. I never wipe as the result of a speed run, or I should say rarely. I've mostly wiped on bosses due to people not understanding or performing mechanics.

5 minutes on a 20 minute run is an extra 25%, this can add up to a lot when extrapolated upon a long grind. I'd say that my times vary a lot more than that though. I know we are mostly talking about leveling instances, but I'll give an example of Fractals. The longest run in Fractals (without wipes) that I have had is 45 minutes, and the shortest is 13 minutes. That is over 3x as long, and can make a huge difference.

As for everyone being up to par, I'd say you only need 2-3 up to par. A good healer and a good DPS can keep things going, the DPS will grab hate, but the healer will keep them alive long enough for the DPS to burn them down. I've seen speed runs with this sort of set up. That said, I agree that the more people who are capable, the better.




On a separate note, I'd like to add that I also like speed runs not just so that I can get my rewards faster. I find running a dungeon faster and pushing myself to be a lot more exhilarating and enjoyable. The content is quite stale when going slow by comparison. So it's, in part, just for my enjoy-ability of the content.

[Kosmos992k]

I definitely like your idea. I feel the reward needs to be altered so that the conflicting incentives aren't there.

Thanks and I definitely agree with you. I know it would be easy to take my stance as being hostile to players grinding out stuff for relics or other upgrades. I'm not hostile to that at all, I know it's a necessary part of being among the first to obtain such upgraded gear. But putting those players into Duty Roulette where their need is in conflict with the purpose of DR hurts them as well as those who DR is meant to help.

They could also just have any mobs exp that are not killed added to the completion exp. So, if you kill everything or don't kill everything you still get full exp.

Alternatively, they could add an option in the DF for "Newbie Friendly" or "Full Run" or whatever that you can tick, so that you are paired with like-minded individuals.

I think that a newbie friendly DF option would be a terrific idea as well. If both ideas were implemented, DR would actually work as intended, and DF would be a more friendly place for all with the option to indicate you're newbie friendly, since it would cut down on the conflicting aims of players.

[Malicewolf]

The argument for DF giving reward as a purpose of rewarding helping new players is, in my opinion, not a very good argument. It may be the purpose of it, but it obviously doesn't work as intended. Telling someone they 'should' act in a way that they aren't isn't going to make them all of a sudden do that. You either need strict rules or rewards for the behaviour that you want.

The best way to go about this is rewarding behavior that you want. Unfortunately, the current system rewards the opposite. It provides the same reward despite the time taken, so naturally the best reward is for speed runs. If you really want to reward someone for helping out, add something similar to the commendation system only if you are new. Have it ask, rate the following player among "Did they go out of their way to help you learn this instance?" "Did they obstruct you from learning this instance?" If they say yes to the first, you get double the reward, if they say yes to the second you get 0 reward, if they say no to both you get normal rewards.

I fully agree with you on this part. The reward system doesn't support the intent. But it does not change the intent for the system being put in place. This is more so one of those community standards within the game that we created. It's ok to speed run because we don't require everyone in our team to be with us on some of these runs. Simply put, it creates a negative environment for the newbies.

As for your note on the healer, as a healer, I'd also find this frustrating. I can adapt as a healer to the size of pulls, and will fit in as much DPS as I think I can handle. I know what skills I have on CD (bene/lustrate for example) and can time your hp to go down as such. Some times this means I'll let your HP drop to 20%, but I won't let you die. This doesn't mean I can't handle a larger pull or don't want you to pull larger.

I expect healer's I know to edge me. I do not expect random healers in DF to try to edge me without prior notification. If they do, I will simply assume the worst and adjust my play style to match. Especially if said healer allows DPS's to drop. If I notice you upkeep everyone well, you seem to always have me when I hit 20% hp and you say you can handle more, then sure, I'll pull bigger mobs. But if you're quiet and don't give me any notification that you can handle it, I most definitely will not. As a tank my 1st priority, mindset wise, is the preservation of the party as a whole to get through the dungeon.

I guess our experiences differ. I never wipe as the result of a speed run, or I should say rarely. I've mostly wiped on bosses due to people not understanding or performing mechanics.

5 minutes on a 20 minute run is an extra 25%, this can add up to a lot when extrapolated upon a long grind. I'd say that my times vary a lot more than that though. I know we are mostly talking about leveling instances, but I'll give an example of Fractals. The longest run in Fractals (without wipes) that I have had is 45 minutes, and the shortest is 13 minutes. That is over 3x as long, and can make a huge difference.

As for everyone being up to par, I'd say you only need 2-3 up to par. A good healer and a good DPS can keep things going, the DPS will grab hate, but the healer will keep them alive long enough for the DPS to burn them down. I've seen speed runs with this sort of set up. That said, I agree that the more people who are capable, the better.

On a separate note, I'd like to add that I also like speed runs not just so that I can get my rewards faster. I find running a dungeon faster and pushing myself to be a lot more exhilarating and enjoyable. The content is quite stale when going slow by comparison. So it's, in part, just for my enjoy-ability of the content.

Well, I'm not going to say I wipe a lot during speed runs, but I also don't do speed runs unless I feel comfortable with the team (or sometimes I'll simply ask right off the bat and wait for answer). Some exceeded expectations, some more than failed. It's more so that when we start failing during speed runs, it's usually grueling because very seldom is it a 1 time fail. It's usually going to be a few. But AV is probably where this happens the most for me. I tend to get AV a lot on roulette unfortunately T_T

[Kaurie]

But if you're quiet and don't give me any notification that you can handle it, I most definitely will not. As a tank my 1st priority, mindset wise, is the preservation of the party as a whole to get through the dungeon.

Moral of the story, let's all communicate