Please be kind - Lowbie dungeon mini-rant

[MeiUshu]

Please take note, SE: By forcing players to rerun old content beside those who might be newer to it, you've created the "Mythflox" mentality all over again. Just wait til players start getting kicked on entry for not being the "optimal" job to run it quickly.

This is history repeating itself now. Not sure about anyone else, but I was certainly enjoying the game a LOT more before relics (and some of the bad player attitudes) were brought back. . .

worse then that, yesterday I was in Keeper of the Lake, although we had a new player and a healer at that and SAID it as much, the nin, purposedly, went and pulled the entire room picked all the mobs at the start ALL of them including the frog and what not in the back of the tank that Grabbed only a small portion of mobs. the healer managed to keep us all up, but the purpose behind it was to have the healer kicked for incompetence.......when I asked him why he went to pick all those mobs..there was a total mutism and after that the runs went very nicely...it leaves no doubts about the intention, initial intention of that guy.

I hope it was just a isolated occurrence but I fear for the future new player if this way of going about is anything BUT an isolated occurrence.

[Anzaman]

Commendation are bad since heavensward. I started leveling a tank the moment I got my lvl60 mch and whenever I had new players in my team they didn't even give any or say thanks.

Quite often whenever I try to give commendation to X player in the group, they leave the dungeon faster than I can give it to them.

[Kaurie]

I give/receive commendations all the time, I haven't noticed that to be an issue.

Just jumping in as a devil's advocate a little. I see a lot of people ragging on some suggesting that the new players should be considerate of the grinders as well. This is true, and it's a team game. The new players should consider the vets as much as the other way around. An experienced tank shouldn't have to guess that the new people want to kill everything, so speak up. If the new person says "Can we kill everything?" Tank says "I'd rather not." and then the 2 other people chip in, you have a vote. Let's just communicate.

I was called an elitist jerk for saying I'd rather not once, even though I went ahead and did it after finding out everyone else wanted to kill everything. I don't get why having your own opinion and motives makes you selfish or a jerk. Everyone has their reasons for being there, so instead of making it an us vs them and everyone else are jerks out to get us, talk about it. Most people are actually nice if you give them the chance to be.

[Malicewolf]

Doesn't matter if you've run something a million times. Not everyone has. You may run into someone who's running a dungeon for the FIRST time when it's your hundredth. That doesn't put the fault on the new player. I understand you NOT wanting to run every little crevice, but if it's that much of a hassle for you, then go get your FC mates to run the dungeon unsync'd with you instead of using the df.

Now I will say, I'll assume we're good to go for a speed run if I enter a dungeon and there is not "someone is new" notification. But if someone says something, I will always run the entire dungeon.

[Kaurie]

Doesn't matter if you've run something a million times. Not everyone has. You may run into someone who's running a dungeon for the FIRST time when it's your hundredth. That doesn't put the fault on the new player. I understand you NOT wanting to run every little crevice, but if it's that much of a hassle for you, then go get your FC mates to run the dungeon unsync'd with you instead of using the df.

Is this in reply to me?

As I understand it from your post, you're saying there is an inverse relationship between how much you've run content and how much your opinion matters in a group?

Also, suggesting people group doesn't work as the only reason they are there is the leveling roulette bonus.

Now I will say, I'll assume we're good to go for a speed run if I enter a dungeon and there is not "someone is new" notification. But if someone says something, I will always run the entire dungeon.

That is mighty nice of you, but it shouldn't be an expectation. The expectation should be to communicate preferences. When I am new to a dungeon, the last thing I personally want my tank doing is running slowly. I want him to do massive pulls. If he saw the new notification and started doing that, I'd be dreading the entire dungeon.

[Kosmos992k]

I like helping people, but honestly the way we have to go about it is what really kills the motivation. I don't want you to complain about my speed runs any more you want to miss your precious exp.

This right here is your problem Klamor. You don't understand the intent of Duty Roulette. You have an enhanced reward to compensate you for the time and effort need to help newer players through the leveling process. It's NOT your speed run, it is THEIR EXP run. Maybe you should not be a jerk about the EXP that they need because you miss your precious speed run? If you don't want to take the time to actually help, then run something else. You're not helping people by trampling them en route to your latest speed run.

[Kosmos992k]

I hope it was just a isolated occurrence but I fear for the future new player if this way of going about is anything BUT an isolated occurrence.

I don't know how to implement or enforce a policy such as the one I am about to suggest, but I think that we really do need to do something to segregate the players speed running stuff in order to farm whatever farmable thing they need from those players running Duty Roulette to actually help new players. It would help new players immensely to have folks who want to help running those dungeons with them.

Perhaps the best thing is to alter the DR reward so that it's not something that is needed by players for their relic upgrade or gear upgrade, and is more of a horizontal progression reward. Maybe awarding a pair of rare dyes, or a MGP bonus as the reward instead of Tomes. I don't know what would work best, but giving tomes or anything else that has immediate application to the current relic upgrade path is counter productive to the intent of Duty Roulette, and for that matter it's counter to the intent behind the enhanced reward for running anything in Duty Finder with a 'new' player. Both DR and those enhanced rewards are intended as compensation to those players helping the new player. I do not honestly believe that the reward is deserved by anyone dragging new players through a speed run against their will, or who simply doesn't care to consider the new player's needs.

We all had the benefit of running stuff with people at the same level as us, or the same stage of the game. But as time passes, the lead pack of players becomes further removed from their own start in the game and cease considering the things that affect players who are just now starting. It's like they have forgotten what it felt like to be starting out, and lack any compassion or fellow feeling for the new players.

[Malicewolf]

Snip

Nope, it wasn't directed at you, just the entire thread in general. By no means am I saying the grinder shouldn't be considered. But I'm saying, the fact that you've run a dungeon a hundred times doesn't all of a sudden give you the right to say the dungeon will automatically be a speed run at the newbies expense. Everyone started at some point, it's best to be considerate on all aspects. I can't tell you how many times I've run castrum and praetorium. I do understand the monotony and the want to speed run it regardless of how many new players are there. But if I see a newbie who shows up, says he's new and is willing to skip the cutscenes in order to learn the dungeon, I will forcefully slow the pace down a bit to help them. Though, I've very often gotten the backlash from this due to those elitists who can't be held up an extra 5 min to give a short explanation. In these cases, it almost always comes down to whether or not the other tank is on board with me or wants to rush as you can get through both with 4 experienced players honestly.

And the reason DF gives more reward is BECAUSE you are being queued up with randoms for a random dungeon run. It's to encourage players to play content they otherwise would forego so that newer players aren't screwed over and can still get through content.

And I do not expect everyone to do what I do. I just personally like to go the extra mile to help new players as I like doing so. I agree that communication is key as I would prefer to speed run as well if no one HAS to do something specifically (like map the dungeon or just going for the xp).

And I usually gauge my pulls based on healer's ability after pulling small to start. If things go smooth, I'll pull more. If the healer seems to like DPS'ing and let's my hp drop to 1/3, I'll usually keep it to smaller pulls. But the difference in my "speed runs" compared to my regular are usually at most, 5 minutes difference. Sure, you can say that's a lot, but I can also say, majority of my wipes have come from "speed runs" and almost all of the times someone has abandoned a dungeon on me has been due to them as well. Speed runs require EVERYONE on your team to be up to par.
1. If tank can't hold aggro, the party's going to wipe.
2. If healer can't keep up with the dmg, the party is going to wipe.
3. If the DPS can't burn the mobs quick enough, the party is going to wipe because of 1 or 2 occurring due to lack of TP/MP.

It only takes a single weak link to cause wipe after wipe with speed runs (which then makes a run take 10 minutes LONGER than a normal run).

[Kaurie]

I don't know how to implement or enforce a policy such as the one I am about to suggest, but I think that we really do need to do something to segregate the players speed running stuff in order to farm whatever farmable thing they need from those players running Duty Roulette to actually help new players. It would help new players immensely to have folks who want to help running those dungeons with them.

Perhaps the best thing is to alter the DR reward so that it's not something that is needed by players for their relic upgrade or gear upgrade, and is more of a horizontal progression reward. Maybe awarding a pair of rare dyes, or a MGP bonus as the reward instead of Tomes. I don't know what would work best, but giving tomes or anything else that has immediate application to the current relic upgrade path is counter productive to the intent of Duty Roulette, and for that matter it's counter to the intent behind the enhanced reward for running anything in Duty Finder with a 'new' player. Both DR and those enhanced rewards are intended as compensation to those players helping the new player. I do not honestly believe that the reward is deserved by anyone dragging new players through a speed run against their will, or who simply doesn't care to consider the new player's needs.

We all had the benefit of running stuff with people at the same level as us, or the same stage of the game. But as time passes, the lead pack of players becomes further removed from their own start in the game and cease considering the things that affect players who are just now starting. It's like they have forgotten what it felt like to be starting out, and lack any compassion or fellow feeling for the new players.

I definitely like your idea. I feel the reward needs to be altered so that the conflicting incentives aren't there.

They could also just have any mobs exp that are not killed added to the completion exp. So, if you kill everything or don't kill everything you still get full exp.

Alternatively, they could add an option in the DF for "Newbie Friendly" or "Full Run" or whatever that you can tick, so that you are paired with like-minded individuals.

Nope, it wasn't directed at you, just the entire thread in general. By no means am I saying the grinder shouldn't be considered. But I'm saying, the fact that you've run a dungeon a hundred times doesn't all of a sudden give you the right to say the dungeon will automatically be a speed run at the newbies expense. Everyone started at some point, it's best to be considerate on all aspects. I can't tell you how many times I've run castrum and praetorium. I do understand the monotony and the want to speed run it regardless of how many new players are there. But if I see a newbie who shows up, says he's new and is willing to skip the cutscenes in order to learn the dungeon, I will forcefully slow the pace down a bit to help them. Though, I've very often gotten the backlash from this due to those elitists who can't be held up an extra 5 min to give a short explanation. In these cases, it almost always comes down to whether or not the other tank is on board with me or wants to rush as you can get through both with 4 experienced players honestly.

Ah for sure. I am not disagreeing with you. I often will stop and explain things to new players, as long as they speak up and say something. Or sometimes if I see the new bonus, I'll ask "Do you know what to do here?" etc.

I've definitely seen people race in without explanation, and I'll try to explain while we fight. It's very annoying, and I agree with that.

And the reason DF gives more reward is BECAUSE you are being queued up with randoms for a random dungeon run. It's to encourage players to play content they otherwise would forego so that newer players aren't screwed over and can still get through content.

The argument for DF giving reward as a purpose of rewarding helping new players is, in my opinion, not a very good argument. It may be the purpose of it, but it obviously doesn't work as intended. Telling someone they 'should' act in a way that they aren't isn't going to make them all of a sudden do that. You either need strict rules or rewards for the behaviour that you want.

The best way to go about this is rewarding behavior that you want. Unfortunately, the current system rewards the opposite. It provides the same reward despite the time taken, so naturally the best reward is for speed runs. If you really want to reward someone for helping out, add something similar to the commendation system only if you are new. Have it ask, rate the following player among "Did they go out of their way to help you learn this instance?" "Did they obstruct you from learning this instance?" If they say yes to the first, you get double the reward, if they say yes to the second you get 0 reward, if they say no to both you get normal rewards.

And I do not expect everyone to do what I do. I just personally like to go the extra mile to help new players as I like doing so. I agree that communication is key as I would prefer to speed run as well if no one HAS to do something specifically (like map the dungeon or just going for the xp).

And I usually gauge my pulls based on healer's ability after pulling small to start. If things go smooth, I'll pull more. If the healer seems to like DPS'ing and let's my hp drop to 1/3, I'll usually keep it to smaller pulls.

As for your note on the healer, as a healer, I'd also find this frustrating. I can adapt as a healer to the size of pulls, and will fit in as much DPS as I think I can handle. I know what skills I have on CD (bene/lustrate for example) and can time your hp to go down as such. Some times this means I'll let your HP drop to 20%, but I won't let you die. This doesn't mean I can't handle a larger pull or don't want you to pull larger.

But the difference in my "speed runs" compared to my regular are usually at most, 5 minutes difference. Sure, you can say that's a lot, but I can also say, majority of my wipes have come from "speed runs" and almost all of the times someone has abandoned a dungeon on me has been due to them as well. Speed runs require EVERYONE on your team to be up to par.
1. If tank can't hold aggro, the party's going to wipe.
2. If healer can't keep up with the dmg, the party is going to wipe.
3. If the DPS can't burn the mobs quick enough, the party is going to wipe because of 1 or 2 occurring due to lack of TP/MP.

It only takes a single weak link to cause wipe after wipe with speed runs (which then makes a run take 10 minutes LONGER than a normal run).

I guess our experiences differ. I never wipe as the result of a speed run, or I should say rarely. I've mostly wiped on bosses due to people not understanding or performing mechanics.

5 minutes on a 20 minute run is an extra 25%, this can add up to a lot when extrapolated upon a long grind. I'd say that my times vary a lot more than that though. I know we are mostly talking about leveling instances, but I'll give an example of Fractals. The longest run in Fractals (without wipes) that I have had is 45 minutes, and the shortest is 13 minutes. That is over 3x as long, and can make a huge difference.

As for everyone being up to par, I'd say you only need 2-3 up to par. A good healer and a good DPS can keep things going, the DPS will grab hate, but the healer will keep them alive long enough for the DPS to burn them down. I've seen speed runs with this sort of set up. That said, I agree that the more people who are capable, the better.




On a separate note, I'd like to add that I also like speed runs not just so that I can get my rewards faster. I find running a dungeon faster and pushing myself to be a lot more exhilarating and enjoyable. The content is quite stale when going slow by comparison. So it's, in part, just for my enjoy-ability of the content.

[Kosmos992k]

I definitely like your idea. I feel the reward needs to be altered so that the conflicting incentives aren't there.

Thanks and I definitely agree with you. I know it would be easy to take my stance as being hostile to players grinding out stuff for relics or other upgrades. I'm not hostile to that at all, I know it's a necessary part of being among the first to obtain such upgraded gear. But putting those players into Duty Roulette where their need is in conflict with the purpose of DR hurts them as well as those who DR is meant to help.

They could also just have any mobs exp that are not killed added to the completion exp. So, if you kill everything or don't kill everything you still get full exp.

Alternatively, they could add an option in the DF for "Newbie Friendly" or "Full Run" or whatever that you can tick, so that you are paired with like-minded individuals.

I think that a newbie friendly DF option would be a terrific idea as well. If both ideas were implemented, DR would actually work as intended, and DF would be a more friendly place for all with the option to indicate you're newbie friendly, since it would cut down on the conflicting aims of players.