Why does Clemency get interrupted? And why does Sword/Shield Oath reset combo?

[VanilleFang]

why?

Why not just have something paladin can do but warrior can't?

Because WAR has to be the same or better than PLD, obviously.

[Sandamar]

I love it when people compare stance dancing they always seems to forget that the effect is also completely different.
Using shield oath or grit gives you a self sustained 20%damage reduction directly. Using defiance gives you absolutely nothing on your own and that actually makes a huge difference also. You need to be baby sitted by a healer to make turning defiance worth

The CD is also way longer a full 10 secs for warrior.
Maybe stance dance looks more appealing but it also has some major downside as well

[Raxiaz]

I love it when people compare stance dancing they always seems to forget that the effect is also completely different.
Using shield oath or grit gives you a self sustained 20%damage reduction directly. Using defiance gives you absolutely nothing on your own and that actually makes a huge difference also. You need to be baby sitted by a healer to make turning defiance worth

The CD is also way longer a full 10 secs for warrior.
Maybe stance dance looks more appealing but it also has some major downside as well

Major downside? Like what? I've never experienced a "major downside" and, if you're going to switch to a stance, it makes sense to be in it for longer than 10 seconds. as far as I can tell, that's the only "major downside" you listed.

[Freyyy]

major downside

When switching stances as a WAR :
+ You convert your stacks
+ You don't lose a GCD
+ You don't spend MP/TP
+ You don't break your current combo
- You don't instantly get Defiance's HP when switching from DPS to tanking stance

When switching stances as a PLD :
- You spend a GCD for each stance
- You spend MP
- You break your combo, making it so that you can't switch stance at any time, you virtually only have 2.5 sec CD on your stances, but because of that, it's just like you had 7.5 sec CD WHILE being on the GCD
+ You instantly benefit from your tanking stance

When switching stances as a DRK :
- You spend a GCD for switching from DPS to tank
- You spend a shitton of MP for switching from DPS to tank
- You break your combos for switching from DPS to tank
+ You instantly benefit from your tanking stance
+ When switching from Grit to no Grit, you don't spend GCD, MP or break your combo

Suddenly, what seems to be the only "balanced" stance-dancing is DRK's stance-dancing. Also, for the only "con" of Defiance/Deliverance, about the HP which are not instantly granted, you either get the ability to instantly Equilibrium, or Inner Beast if you had 5 stacks when switching. Inner Beast will heal 50% to 80% of the missing HP from Defiance while granting you 20% damage reduction which equals Grit and Shield Oath for the next 6 seconds on top of the bonus in healing received from Defiance. All of that, while dealing a 300 potency attack ignoring Defiance's damage penalty. Shield Oath/Grit both spend a GCD without dealing any damage, on top of all the other cons they have. So yeah. Even if it works completely differently for WAR, his only "con" is very far from equaling the multiple "cons" of the other tank stances.

I think that DRK is completely fine as it is tho and it may be the best solution to go with for PLD, make Sword Oath oGCD, but keep Shield Oath as it is. Just my opinion tho.

[AzureFlare]

Stuff

You forgot the part where, since heals and shields snapshot, you retain the benefit of buffed HoTs and shields when switching back to Deliverance compared to Grit/Sh.Oath. Very nitpicky I know, but it adds up pretty nicely over time, especially with Conval.
Completely agree with your post regardless.

[Sandamar]

I like your + - list Freyy it's actually pretty accurate. In my opinion having the benefit from your tanking stance instantly is actually one of the most important one because what's the point in using tanking stance if you don't get any defense out of it? That's the main utility of tank stance tbh.

Inner Beast use one gcd so, ok tank swaping use 0 GCD but you'll use 1 afterward to use the most common tank buster defensive CD. While PLD and DRK will use 1 gcd to turn on a 20% damage reduction and their following CD will be off gcd. There's a slight balance if you take everything into consideration.

For your information the damage penalty for war in defiance is 25% not 20% like shield oath and grit, so there goes another difference

If you swap too late in defiance you're screwed, you miss a buffed stoneskin, a buffed adlo. So yeah it's actually a major downside, i don't see why it isn't. Pld and Drk can just turn on Shield Oath or grit during a tank buster cast bar and be perfectly fine, doing that as a war is actually a failure. And ofc war can slightly compensate with Inner Beast and Equilibrium but it's still a downside.
Using Equilbrium to top yourself up before a tank buster is quite a failure and usually a huge overheal wasted,you'd be better off saving it for oh shit button once the buster hits.


And Raxiaz i' m not only listing the 10 seconds CD, the major downside is that you dont' benefit instantly from your tanking stance. Which is quite a downside for a tank stance.

All i'm saying is that stance dancing as war does have some downside it's not as perfect as people think. I'm not saying it's balanced between the 3 tanks though.

[Freyyy]

Inner Beast use one gcd so, ok tank swaping use 0 GCD but you'll use 1 afterward to use the most common tank buster defensive CD

But as I said, yes IB is a GCD that you use afterwards, but it actually deals freaking 300 potency worth of damage ignoring Defiance's penalty while healing AND giving you 20% mitigation, whereas Grit/Shield Oath don't deal damage, don't heal you or whatever, it just gives you instantly 20% mitigation. And yeah, you have to turn Defiance on a bit earlier than what DRK/PLD would do with Shield Oath for tank busters, but keep in mind that because of the breaking combo shit for DRK and PLD, they have to do this too. You have to make sure to switch to your tanking stance before starting the next combo because breaking a combo with a non-damaging GCD is the worst DPS loss you can imagine.

[SpookyGhost]

In a situation where WAR needs to go into Defiance and use IB for the 20% from IB over Unchained -> 5 stacks -> IB (the latter of which will cost a healer a GCD or a CD) or use Equilibrium, a PLD could stay in SwO and use Sheltron + Tower Shield or a DRK could stay out of Grit and use DA + DM and get nearly the same effect. Also something else to note is that Defiance is still unaffected by healing abilities and WAR still receives slightly less healing per spell. I personally have no qualms with taking SwO off the GCD like Darkside as it would help PLD's ShO DPS/enmity problem and also make Grit/ShO no longer interrupt combos. I don't think making both oGCD like Defiance/Deliverance would be a good idea unless Defiance was altered like mentioned, though.

[Launched]

When switching stances as a WAR :
+ You convert your stacks
+ You don't lose a GCD
+ You don't spend MP/TP
+ You don't break your current combo
- You don't instantly get Defiance's HP when switching from DPS to tanking stance

-Less healing received from any healing ability/spell except Benediction compared to PLD/DRK
-Locked into Defiance for 10s, PLD/DRK can drop Shield Oath/Grit instantly after a tankbuster (PLD can reactivate Sword Oath after finishing its current combo with no Oath)
-Have to sacrifice a Fell Cleave and +10% crit for Inner Beast
-Inner Beast won't heal you to full unless you're full STR, you're using Berserk AND you get a crit so you still need healer help or you need to blow ANOTHER cooldown
-Can't even use Inner Beast outside of Defiance, PLD/DRK get access to all their cooldowns besides Blood Weapon
-WAR has the biggest conflict between using abilities offensively and defensively so either you're losing DPS or mitigation (IB vs FC, stacks from Berserk/Vengeance/Raw Intuition)

You forgot the part where, since heals and shields snapshot, you retain the benefit of buffed HoTs and shields when switching back to Deliverance compared to Grit/Sh.Oath. Very nitpicky I know, but it adds up pretty nicely over time, especially with Conval.
Completely agree with your post regardless.

That also works the other way around: any WAR tanking in Deliverance needs to have Regen recast on them to get the full benefit when they change to Defiance.

[Freyyy]

snip

Yeah all of this is good and true, but that wasn't the point at all. We were strictly talking about the very moment when you switch stances. What you're talking about is just the choices you do during the whole fight when you choose to be either in Defiance or Deliverance every time you switch. That's what WAR is all about : constantly choosing between an offensive or a defensive option, and that's a whole other discussion.
I'm not really trying to say that WAR is OP, because I don't think it is. It's just the best designed job in the game and it works wonderfully. I also don't want Grit/Oaths to be off GCD; what I want is them to no longer interrupt combos and eventually SwO only being oGCD. I fully know and understand why WAR's stances are oGCD and work like they work compared to the other stances, but nobody can find a true and accurate justification of why the hell Grit/Oaths are breaking combos, while costing time and resource. Time and resource should be enough of a downside.