Lets shut these new tanks up please: 7 PLD 1 SCH Thordan clear and then 7 DrK 1 WHM

[SpookyGhost]

A1S/A2S have been doable since 190, A3S should be fine with current gear, and A4S should also be fine due to the sac strat. 6x WAR + 1 DRG + 1 SCH/AST/WHM would be the optimal comp for a full Savage run through, though you may need 2x healers for A4S. A1S-A3S are pretty outgeared now (was doable week 1 which means i185~i190), and I'm not actually sure if A4S is possible with the intended Nisi strat or not but I doubt they'll be doing that method.

Assuming your complaint is "WAR does too much DPS!", then I think you're partially right and partially wrong. A1S, as an example, was doable in i190 for the aforementioned comp. The reason for this is the fight was tuned so low in terms of DPS that WAR's was good enough to beat enrage while providing excess mitigation to make solo healing it even at such low gear levels possible. With that tuning, WAR's DPS is genuinely too high. However, if the DPS check was tighter, as seen in A3S, we'd no longer be able to just throw WARs at it and kill it at the same speed as a normal comp group would. So the easiest way to avoid WAR stacking is to make tighter DPS checks that wouldn't allow for it until exceptionally overgeared.

However, considering the fact that they want to make the next raid tier "easier" that can only mean loosening the DPS check, which will make WAR stacking once again viable. But they'll also be changing the damage formula for tanks in 3.2, so the meta could shift entirely if DPS is balanced.

Right now, for A1S, A2S, and Thordan EX, at the gear level we entered them in, WAR's DPS would have allowed you to reliably class stack them. Thordan, as I mentioned before, is also doable with PLD/DRK just at a slower time.

So, basically, if you want to complain that WAR does a whole lot of DPS in current content, then you'd be correct. I understand the worry for 3.2, I honestly don't like how the future is looking for DRK or PLD if things stay the same, but we won't know until we get there.

[Reynhart]

So, basically, if you want to complain that WAR does a whole lot of DPS in current content, then you'd be correct.

For me the problem is that WAR deals too much damage for how sturdy it is, compared either to real DPS or other tanks.
So, you could either lower its DPS output, to keep it closer to tanks, or reduce its mitigation tools, to emphasize on the "WAR is the tank that DPS while PLD is the physical mitigation tank"

But, for now, WAR has no real downside.

[Whiston]

For me the problem is that WAR deals too much damage for how sturdy it is, compared either to real DPS or other tanks.
So, you could either lower its DPS output, to keep it closer to tanks, or reduce its mitigation tools, to emphasize on the "WAR is the tank that DPS while PLD is the physical mitigation tank"

But, for now, WAR has no real downside.

I don't think WAR deals too much damage for it's sturdiness. Dark Knight is dealing as much (and more) damage in current encounters as warrior, while arguably being even more resilient to incoming damage while doing so.


I do believe that WAR is truly the most well thought out tank, and should be the template for class design moving forwards.
WAR isn't significantly overpowered compared to the other tanks as much as they are underwhelming, clunky, and lack the synergy that WAR possess.

The two major contributing factors that make warrior appear so strong are it's unbalanced self heals (great cooldowns in progression content, contributes greatly to the ease of encounters once overgeared), and the insane strength of Berserk. Because Berserk is so strong, any downtime in an encounter while it's on cooldown is greatly benefiting a warrior in relation to the rest of the group.
If there were an encounter in this game, where you had a boss on the ground for 30 seconds, followed by 60 seconds of invulnerability and dodging, and repeated, there's a very good chance that no class could outdamage a warrior in that fight. The results are significantly muted, however, when there is continuous uptime in an encounter (as most encounters are designed).

Conceivably I could see the devs slightly nerfing the sustainability of warriors due to self heals, but outside of that, they'd be doing themselves and their game a disservice by actually altering the way the class plays.

[Reynhart]

I don't think WAR deals too much damage for it's sturdiness. Dark Knight is dealing as much (and more) damage in current encounters as warrior, while arguably being even more resilient to incoming damage while doing so.

By itself, a WAR is able to go from 1HP (Thanks to Holmgang) to near full life a in few GCD.
DRK is far from being able to do so, while needing it far more than WAR due to how Living Dead works.

Reducing WAR self heal is a way to make it less sturdy, but I'd rather reduce their mitigation. Why ? Because self-heal is its thing, while mitigating incoming damage used to be PLD's.

[Whiston]

By itself, a WAR is able to go from 1HP (Thanks to Holmgang) to near full life a in few GCD.
DRK is far from being able to do so, while needing it far more than WAR due to how Living Dead works.

Reducing WAR self heal is a way to make it less sturdy, but I'd rather reduce their mitigation. Why ? Because self-heal is its thing, while mitigating incoming damage used to be PLD's.

Why would you propose to reduce the mitigation of a tank class? This sentiment confuses me.
Given that you would reduce their mitigation, what would you propose? Removing Raw Intuition, or removing Vengeance? Because these are truly their major mitigation assets.
Inner beast surely doesn't count, because entering Defiance already is the tradeoff in the DPS department.

As far as this topic goes, the warriors self healing abilities are exactly why this job excels at this sort of gimmick encounter.
For Thordan, any warrior targeted by dragoon dives pops a minor cooldown and self heals from it. The healer doesn't even have to flinch.
Paladin and Dark Knight can pop a cooldown of course, but PLD would then either have to stop and heal, or rely on the healers abilities. Dark Knight of course has very little in self heals.

As far as any tank imbalance goes, and specifically why everyone is all aboard the "WAR 2 OP PLS NERF" bandwagon is because of this self sufficiency and incredible synergy, that is actually very enticing about the class.

As I said before, Warrior should be the model for class design.

[Reynhart]

Inner beast surely doesn't count, because entering Defiance already is the tradeoff in the DPS department.

I'd give them back Inner Beast from 2.0 while keeping the rest as it is now.
What should be confusing you is a tank job designed to "DPS". Reducing the mitigation is to keep with that view while offering a tradeoff

Well that's exactly the reason why DRK is not able to do so, because it would be wayyyy too overpowered with Living Dead.

Why ?
It's the exact effect of Holmgang. Yes, Living Dead lasts a few seconds more, but the recast is also longer. And It's the only skill where you can end up dead even without taking any additionnal damage. That's a huge tradeoff.

[Whiston]

I'd give them back Inner Beast from 2.0 while keeping the rest as it is now.
What should be confusing you is a tank job designed to "DPS". Reducing the mitigation is to keep with that view while offering a tradeoff.

I think I speak for all of 2.0 when I say "thank God you don't make the decisions around here!"

I'm not confused at all about the tanking damage formula.
As I've already said, DRK does as much AND MORE than warrior as it is. Why isn't it labelled the tank job designed to DPS?

[Freyyy]

About Living Dead

It doesn't just last a few seconds more than Holmgang. The true duration of it depends on how much time was remaining on "Living Dead" when you took fatal damage, and how much time your healers took to get you out of "Walking Dead". With proper team-planning, it can grant you up to 18-19sec of no risk of dying without the healers needing to heal you at all at the cost of a Benediction. In these cases, it's kinda better than HG considering the lower cooldown. If you have no Bene, then there is still Cure II, Lustrate, Tetra, etc... Which can heal you very fast unless you're full VIT and have 20k max HP (which is a terribad idea). If the DRK was able to actually get himself out of Walking Dead without any form of assistance or maybe just a regen ticking, that would be completely superior to HG.

[Syzygian]

Why ?
It's the exact effect of Holmgang. Yes, Living Dead lasts a few seconds more, but the recast is also longer. And It's the only skill where you can end up dead even without taking any additionnal damage. That's a huge tradeoff.

These sound like the words of a WAR that raids with a PLD and not a DRK.

Assumptions about your party composition aside, its definitely not the exact effect of Holmgang. If you plan out LD's execution based on study of a boss's rotation, and you have a good healer that is paying attention, that's almost 18s (triple that of Holmgang) of invulnerability and healer DPS. When I use it in A3S my WHM and AST go absolutely caveman on the hand, and I get bene'd at 2 seconds (because of benedictions animation).

LD's perceived disadvantages are based on its non-healer-friendliness in the context of a pug. In a static with communication, and precision of timing and execution, every bit as god-mode as the other CDs. The possibility of dying if you or your healer fucks up is a small price to pay for its 2-min shorter CD than HG and up to 8-ish seconds longer of invulnerability, Holmgang may be useable more often, but it has its own obvious and well-documented disadvantages as well.

[Freyyy]

By itself, a WAR is able to go from 1HP (Thanks to Holmgang) to near full life a in few GCD.
DRK is far from being able to do so, while needing it far more than WAR due to how Living Dead works.

Well that's exactly the reason why DRK is not able to do so, because it would be wayyyy too overpowered with Living Dead. What's the point in having this Walking Dead debuff if you can cleanse it by yourself (or almost by yourself) ? While WAR's self-healing is very "bursty", DRK's self-healing is more "over-time". But they're pretty even in that matter if you ask me. WAR is just slightly above because of the short CD of Equilibrium, and Bloodbath's longer duration + its insane synergy with Berserk.
Anyway, what Whiston was talking about is mitigation. DRK has an easier time mitigating damage while DPSing because it doesn't have much to sacrifice in order to do so. You basically only sacrifice your tanking stance. WAR musts sacrifice both its tanking stance + its best mitigation tool : IB. Also, if tanking stance is needed, DRK doesn't sacrifice as much damage as a WAR since he has no DPS stance. You just sacrifice Blood Weapon and 20% damage, and if you switch to Grit while Blood Weapon is on CD, you only sacrifice 20% damage. WAR may be able to use Unchained, but it has a 2min CD, and he still loses 5% damage from Deliverance, while losing access to Fell Cleave and the +%crit from the Abandon stacks. If he has to use Defiance while Unchained is on CD, he loses 25% damage on top of that. DRK definitely doesn't have that level of "trade-off" between offense and defense. And if the boss does magic damage, like most of Alex Savage, well... DRK is just flat-out the god of mitigation.