Bard - they broke my job

[Kelevra]

It was their damage though. Unnerfed cross-class B4B and IR, at a time when melee were incredibly weaker than their 2.1 (and future) versions, and in general there was no mechanic that was more streamlined or simpler with a 2X melee comp over mostly ranged ... it was not a good time for ranged vs melee balance.

Not disagreeing, but that was two years ago...

While SE was buffing and fine tuning Mnk and Drg through updates during 2.X, they should have been "unnerfing" Brd little by little. Not saying they should have ultimately reverted Brd back to the way it was at 2.0 release over time, but going through most of the 2.X updates post 2.1....and leaving Brd largely untouched was piss poor. It was hard to notice back then, but when the xpac dropped...the lack of attention through said updates had added up and it was way too obvious.

As someone that has embraced Minuet, and still plays and raid with Brd, the gap between there dps and that of casters/melee shouldn't be the way it is currently (being placed in an isolated box along with Mch is unfair----they are still dps b4 anything else). The Minuet tweak to 30% was a step in the right direction....but it's still 30%. And that's just to keep Brd close to where they were in terms of dealing dmg b4 the xpac came out. This may be ok for dungeons and DF, but for someone that also raids like myself...I think Brd could still use some improvements Dps wise.

....change the end game meta to "moar dps," "moar dps," "moar dps" but keep Brd on the end of the spectrum where they mostly contribute the least amount of dmg among dps over a long fight (while making it so a War can contribute as much as a Brd---if not more at times), not cool

....making it so most dps jobs now bring at least one very useful "utility" to a party but still only penalize Brd for their's, also not cool

[Warlyx]

Not disagreeing, but that was two years ago...

While SE was buffing and fine tuning Mnk and Drg through updates during 2.X, they should have been "unnerfing" Brd little by little. Not saying they should have ultimately reverted Brd back to the way it was at 2.0 release over time, but going through most of the 2.X updates post 2.1....and leaving Brd largely untouched was piss poor. It was hard to notice back then, but when the xpac dropped...the lack of attention through said updates had added up and it was way too obvious.

As someone that has embraced Minuet, and still plays and raid with Brd, the gap between there dps and that of casters/melee shouldn't be the way it is currently (being placed in an isolated box along with Mch is unfair----they are still dps b4 anything else). The Minuet tweak to 30% was a step in the right direction....but it's still 30%. And that's just to keep Brd close to where they were in terms of dealing dmg b4 the xpac came out. This may be ok for dungeons and DF, but for someone that also raids like myself...I think Brd could still use some improvements Dps wise.

....change the end game meta to "moar dps," "moar dps," "moar dps" but keep Brd on the end of the spectrum where they mostly contribute the least amount of dmg among dps over a long fight (while making it so a War can contribute as much as a Brd---if not more at times), not cool

....making it so most dps jobs now bring at least one very useful "utility" to a party but still only penalize Brd for their's, also not cool

yep , i feel the same way , and cant agree more ...is at times infuriating. I feel like my bard didnt advance like the other jobs in HW...all other jobs got new toys or ways to cover the old holes coming from 2.0 (see healers as perfect example : sch lacked aoe healing power got it in HW , WHM lacked instant healing outside Bene ..and got it )

i want the same treatment that SE gave to WAR and SMN. Look at war nowadays , is a tank , has utility and on top of that does almost the same dmg as me...

smn .... the "revamp" was awesome , now smn has everything , awesome single target, incredible AOE , good sustained , good cleave ....and still is the only dps that can rez in combat. Plus is the most mobile DPS job now , Virus and Eye for eye.... as cherry on top.

[RiceisNice]

yep , i feel the same way , and cant agree more ...is at times infuriating. I feel like my bard didnt advance like the other jobs in HW...all other jobs got new toys or ways to cover the old holes coming from 2.0 (see healers as perfect example : sch lacked aoe healing power got it in HW , WHM lacked instant healing outside Bene ..and got it ) .

NIN felt like this to me as well, they didn't get much change in terms of gameplay or new abilties. I can't comment on MCH since they had no 2.0, but it still irks me to no end that they're taking so many abilities from BRD, and that GB ends up homogenizing the two so much without MCH having it's own identity (which could have come from a more innovative ammo mechanic, attachments, or turret interaction)

[Warlyx]

NIN felt like this to me as well, they didn't get much change in terms of gameplay or new abilties. I can't comment on MCH since they had no 2.0, but it still irks me to no end that they're taking so many abilities from BRD, and that GB ends up homogenizing the two so much without MCH having it's own identity (which could have come from a more innovative ammo mechanic, attachments, or turret interaction)

yeah but NIN was a job released later on and it really feels like NIN was created with HW on mind , looks how complete the job is....SW tosses morw utility (agro transfers) and some DPS cds (DwD and Duality) plus Armor crash a QOL skill that changed the job ....oh dont forget how mudras work now :3 i love it !

MP/TP is rarerly needed now

ppl say foe is utility , so its slashing debuff from NIN/WAR , piercing from DRG...

NIN has slashing , goad , +10% dmg taken
drg has piercing and Crit buff.
War has slashing debuff, is a tank , -10% dmg taken , and good dps
SMN , still has virus , eye for eye and is the only dps that can rez.
MNK int debuff , mantra and Top dps
bard has mp / tp regen that no1 needs outside wipefest nights , and Foe for the lonely mage and healer dpsing...
Mch has mp/tp regen and -5% debuf for magic or physical.
BLM......has ..... cool spells i guess :P /comfort


The point is that if SE balances jobs around support/dps they are doing it WRONG. (look at tanks too...the balance is way off)

[Kaeoni]

most dps jobs now bring at least one very useful "utility" to a party but still only penalize Brd for their's, also not cool

Mage's Ballad, Army's Paeon, Foe's Requiem.

3 of the most powerful.. No. The only 3 actual perpetual utility buffs in the entire game that last for extended periods of time.

If not for you, your party would run out of TP in boss battles
Your mages and Nin's Ninjutsu would do Less damage.
Your healers Might run out of Mana causing a wipe.

Your usefulness far outweighs a singular straight up dps in every single long winded fight in the entire game. Essentially any damage a Tank and DPS does outside of their own TP pool, and the 10% dmg increase from all magic dmg you give with Foe's is dmg YOU are creating, It's not their dmg because they wouldn't have done that dmg WITHOUT YOU.

Now I don't do Savage Alex, and my brd is only 52. But unless things radically changed from Coil days, you have nothing to complain about.

[RiceisNice]

Now I don't do Savage Alex, and my brd is only 52. But unless things radically changed from Coil days, you have nothing to complain about.

None of the fights require a TP regen due to the amount of downtime inbetween, as well as the overall better TP effiency that all combat jobs received post level 50. The execption is if someone dies...but NIN goad can cover that better than paeon since it doesn;t come with damage penalty.

Ballad isn't absolutely nessescary for fights post-progression. I hardly ever see my self needing to play ballad unless something has come wrong (and in the context of something like A3s, if it's gotten that bad then chances are it's unrecoverable)

Foe Requiem is in the similar circumstances of disembowel boosting BRD/MCH dps, and storm's eye allowing ninjas to use more AE.

[Kelevra]

Mage's Ballad, Army's Paeon, Foe's Requiem.

3 of the most powerful.. No. The only 3 actual perpetual utility buffs in the entire game that last for extended periods of time.

If not for you, your party would run out of TP in boss battles
Your mages and Nin's Ninjutsu would do Less damage.
Your healers Might run out of Mana causing a wipe.

Your usefulness far outweighs a singular straight up dps in every single long winded fight in the entire game. Essentially any damage a Tank and DPS does outside of their own TP pool, and the 10% dmg increase from all magic dmg you give with Foe's is dmg YOU are creating, It's not their dmg because they wouldn't have done that dmg WITHOUT YOU.

Now I don't do Savage Alex, and my brd is only 52. But unless things radically changed from Coil days, you have nothing to complain about.

...that's just it tho, no party in there right mind would want a Bard to sing Ballad/Paeon for 'extended periods of time'

For Mp regen, the healers have gotten more tools to help with that. For tp regen, even with a good bit of the end game content having a fair bit of downtime at certain phases...most of the melee also have tools for restoring chunks of the tp when needed.

When those aren't needed, yeah I'd be running Requiem...unless I already am or have been (and have emptied out my mp doing so and waiting for it to build back up). Requiem more or less is a given tho and is mostly beneficial when a caster is present. Somewhat when healers are dps'n (I say somewhat cause healers sometimes have Acc issues, even with RoD debuff). A Brd playin requiem is like a Mnk keeping Dragon Kick applied, a Drg keepin Disembowel on the target, or a Nin not forgetting to reapply Dancing Edge.

But you wanna know something funny about Foe's....Brd doesn't benefit from it. Has Windbite and Flaming Arrow and neither of the two see enhancements to dmg when Requiem is active. Dragonfire Dive gets increased dmg when Requiem is running....u say a Nin's Ninjitsu does more damage when Foe's is running....and those two jobs already get increased dmg when there respective debuffs are applied to the target for most of the other moves in their arsenal.

So in a long fight, in a sitiuation...where the dps composition doesn't include a Drg, Brd dmg receives no enhancements when their 'debuff' song is playing.

Also...with groups doing end game content:

2 casters, 1 melee, and 1 ranged seems ok for a dps composition

2 melee, 1 caster, and 1 ranged seems ok for a dps composition

2 ranged, 1 melee, and 1 caster.....ppl shy away from

Reason being...cuz our 'usefulness CURRENTLY DOES NOT far outweigh a singular straight up dps in every single long winded fight' and dmg wise, Bard (and Mch) needs to be removed from the isolated box they are currently in. IMHO

[Connor]

I think it says a lot that the Warden's Paean doesn't even come into the equation when considering Bard utility lol.

Personally, the idea of Bards having relatively low dps has never bothered me personally. What does bother me is when this dps is justified by being assumedly high utility when that utility feels relatively lacklustre in most content. Outside of Savage and maybe Thordan EX you won't see much use of the Mage's Ballad and the Army's Paeon, and even in that content you may not need either a lot of the time. This only leaves Foe Requiem to use, which is at least very powerful and almost always worth using since even if you don't have casters healers will often be nuking. And the Warden's Paean is still pretty much useless outside of negating Warrior's pacify debuff.

I think it says a lot that the Warden's Paean doesn't even come into the equation when considering Bard utility lol.

Personally, the idea of Bards having relatively low dps has never bothered me personally. What does bother me is when this dps is justified by being assumedly high utility when that utility feels relatively lacklustre in most content. Outside of Savage and maybe Thordan EX you won't see much use of the Mage's Ballad and the Army's Paeon, and even in that content you may not need either a lot of the time. This only leaves Foe Requiem to use, which is at least very powerful and almost always worth using since even if you don't have casters healers will often be nuking. And the Warden's Paean is still pretty much useless outside of negating Warrior's pacify debuff.

The whole 'dpssssss' meta kinda makes things tough for Bard as well, I think. Every job is expected to push up huge amounts of damage yet Bards are still at the bottom end of the scale, and this gets even lower if they actually have to sing Ballad / Paeon. Bard dps is always going to be at the bottom end of the spectrum because it's a 'support'. But it's never going to have essential or specifically powerful support because it's a dps.
Tbh, I feel like they should kinda just choose one role and focus on that because clearly trying to do both isn't working out for them. They're developing job with roles that don't even actually exist. That's how they broke Bard, if you ask me.

[Shurrikhan]

If not for you, your party would run out of TP in boss battles
Your mages and Nin's Ninjutsu would do Less damage.
Your healers Might run out of Mana causing a wipe.

Your usefulness far outweighs a singular straight up dps in every single long winded fight in the entire game. Essentially any damage a Tank and DPS does outside of their own TP pool, and the 10% dmg increase from all magic dmg you give with Foe's is dmg YOU are creating, It's not their dmg because they wouldn't have done that dmg WITHOUT YOU.

Now I don't do Savage Alex, and my brd is only 52. But unless things radically changed from Coil days, you have nothing to complain about.

That's just it, though. Things have changed since them. Could you imagine a more TP-intensive fight than A2S? And yet I've never seen Paean dropped in there, only Foe, and, if a snowball really starts tumbling, Ballad. (DRG is now able to do AoE dps without spending extensive TP amounts on it (Geirskogul) and Monk can get half an Invigorate for 2.5 GCDs. And in the meantime, Bard AoE dps is pretty damn good, and the NIN usually never escaped the Gobwalker, poor bastard.) TP concerns are on average far less significant than they were in T8 or Final Coil. Ballad is usually played only during phases where enemies are not targetable rather than rotationally between CDs (at the 1:30/2:00-3:00 minute mark or 6-7:30 minutes, etc., when the most possible CDs will be on cooldown simultaneously).