A Tank Balance Megathread

[Syzygian]

I've only had time to give this a quick glance, but I'm liking what I'm reading so far, especially in regards to Pld.

One addition that I would make to the Pld adjustments is reducing the CD timer of Bulwark. As it is now, Bulwark and Awareness are the only two Pld moves that a Pld gets less synergy out of than Wars/Drks, because the CD timers are far too different. This would be fine if they had individual utility, but they don't. Pld's only ever use the two moves together, because Awareness increases the proc odds for Bulwark's shield swipes, thus increasing mitigation. Because the two timers don't line up, Pld's often end up sitting on Awareness for additional time (essentially extending the CD timer of that move artificially), just so they can use it with Bulwark for additional utility.

In comparison, War's have Raw Intuition which lines up perfectly with the timer of Awareness. If you pop them together they come back around together, and you can keep using them in sync. Drk's don't have quite the same efficiency, but the timer for Awareness actually works out so that you can use Awareness with every second Dark Dance (essentially following the defensive rotation of Dark Arts-DD > Awareness - DD. etc). Bulwark and Awareness do not share the same synergy. You can't use it on every second Bulwark without pausing your rotation of Bulwark, and you can't use it with every Bulwark without pausing your use of Awareness. That should be changed.

It might also be prudent to switch the "slashing debuff" to RA rather than RoH. For one, added mitigation on a Pld's main tanking combo is not a bad thing. Given that RoH is used more frequently in MT position, Pld would be able to steadily reduce incoming dmg. RA, on the other hand, is only effectively used once every 4th combo(*as it is now, and assuming the Pld is keeping the Str down debuff of RoH up 100% of the time). Currently Pld's can follow the combo rotation of RoH>GB>RoH>RA>GB>RoH>RA>GB>RoH etc. This way, a Pld's Raid dmg utility would go up as a OT (Following the rotation of GB>RA>RA>GB>RA>RA etc) rather than MT'ing. That being said, with your modifications to Pld hate generation it may be possible to interchange the two debuffs for additonal dmg while mitigating. If the increase in Hate gen from your changes allows a Pld to start a fight with their RA combo instead of RoH, it would be possible to switch the debuffs without much ill effect. It just depends on if the priority lies with mitigation or dmg, for a Pld.

Nice, very well written, and thought out read. I appericate it thank you.

But I am kinda confused about your changes to Rage of Halone, since I main Paladin. How would Paladin's combo rotation work now? RoH > GB > RA > RoH > RA > GB?

My Concerns:

1. Rage of Halone with your emnity buffs to RoH it might be a issue like Warrior has currently OTing, and might rip aggro off the MT, since if you give RoH Warrior's slashing debuff you will want it up all the time. Should buffs or debuffs be applied to main aggro combos? Why not put the slashing debuff on Royal Authority instead?

2. How would I even combo Halone to keep 100% up time on the slashing debuff? I know I will want to use RoH first, and then other combos afterwords to get the most benefit, but I am always seeing a drop off on slashing debuff. The timer does not add up for a three combo system. 20secs on slashing debuff is too short.

-Combo Example-
(Using 2.5gcd, same as above combo)

Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Rage of Halone(slashing debuff applied) > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority > Fast Blade > Savage Blade (slashing debuff falls off) > Rage of Halone > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > etc, and repeat

I always get the slashing debuff to fall off right after Savage Blade, before I can apply another RoH again. So there will be 2.5secs gap between periods I can reapply the slashing debuff with another RoH. The slashing debuff needs to change to 24secs imo to work for Pld that uses 3 combos. I am assuming this is the combo you were thinking of too, since Goring Blade's new 30sec DoT lines up well with this set up. If not what were you thinking?

3. And no offense I think this RoH change is actually a nerf to Paladin's current possible dps output, if it was the one to upkeep the slashing debuff up 100% of the time. I'll try to use math, but this is not my thing either, so feel free to correct me if my numbers are wrong, since like I said this is not my thing.

New Combo(Same as the above) upkeep slashing debuff up 100% of the time, also assuming slashing debuff is increased to 24secs, and using the new 30sec dot given to GB.

-new combo rotation-

RoH > GB > RA > RoH > RA > GB > etc

Fast Blade - 150 + (5 x 150)1.1 = 975
Savage Blade - 200 + (3 x 200)1.1 = 860
Rage of Halone - 260 + (260)1.1 = 546
Royal Authority - (2 x 340)1.1 = 748
Riot Blade - (2 x 230)1.1 = 506
Goring Blade - ((540+80 for 2 more ticks, right?) + 220(can't include the dot dmg since it is at the tail end of the combo))1.1 = 924

Total = 4,559 potency


-old/current combo rotation-

GB > RA > RA > GB > RA > RA > etc

Fast Blade - 6 x 150 = 900
Savage Blade - 4 x 200 = 800
Royal Authority - 4 x 340 = 1360
Riot Blade - 2 x 230 = 460
Goring Blade - 2 x 540 = 1080

Total = 4600 potency, they are basically the same...but if we can add a Warrior, and it is still the one applying the slashing debuff.

-old/current combo rotation w/warrior applying slashing debuff-

Fast Blade - 150 + (5 x 150)1.1 = 975
Savage Blade - 200 + (3 x 200)1.1 = 860
Royal Authority - (4 x 340)1.1 = 1496
Riot Blade - (2 x 230)1.1 = 506
Goring Blade - (2 x 540)1.1 = 1188
*This all assumes warrrior needs 2 gcds to apply the slashing debuff, and with a pld likely using shield lob to start an encounter, before starting thier combo, so Storm's Eye should be up before Pld uses a GB.

Total = 5025 potency, a dps gain in the game currently. Idk about your change, it kinda bugs me somehow to know I will get a dps decrease as a tank without a warrior doing it, but still also nerfs the war/drk combo dmg, making pld fit better in comps then it does nowt, so the change with Pld having slashing debuff might be better in the end.


Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or if there is a better combo.


Personally, I would still like to see RoH get a potency increase instead, and idk how I would feel about losing -10% physical down debuff either, but I know I want a way for spells to not impact Paladin damage as much as it does now, again thx for the read.

I will give some thought to theorizing adjustments that will make a more reliable and stead PLD DPS rotation for MTing/OTing later. Crunched for time atm.

Nice objective and constructive thread.

I would like to point out that it feels best when SE would balance all jobs, tanks in this case, through "upgrades". That said, there are some very useful changes given by the community. Maybe you can edit your thread and write the most popular, objective changes underneath the reapective tank:
(
Paladin
X changes

Dark Knigt
X changes
)

I do find it a bit misleading how you and others claim Xeno and Layla called very specific things overpowered. The both agree that WAR (and SCH I think they agreed on) are just very well balanced compared to other jobs and that of course equilibrium's CD, especially for Defiance's use (insane self heal), is too short.

I wasn't intending it to be misleading, however I know from personal experience how people react at the thought of nerfing WAR in any fashion. They did specifically comment on WAR's infinite TP and the fact that Fell Cleave, etc. can be used with no regard to where you are in a combo chain, in a recent MogTalk. Even a 100 TP gain every 90s combined with Wrath/Abandon use delaying TP consumption gives WAR about the same TP sustain as a DRG, which is very good. I wasn't intending it to say that Xeno and co. WANT those adjustments to WAR, but just that if they were made, they would make some sense. Obviously no WAR main wants to see those things go away. But it just doesn't make sense in the context of all jobs. Its not just the tanks that it is outmatching, its DPS as well (in TP sustain, that is.)

[Isius]

Nice objective and constructive thread.

I would like to point out that it feels best when SE would balance all jobs, tanks in this case, through "upgrades". That said, there are some very useful changes given by the community. Maybe you can edit your thread and write the most popular, objective changes underneath the reapective tank:
(
Paladin
X changes

Dark Knigt
X changes
)

I do find it a bit misleading how you and others claim Xeno and Layla called very specific things overpowered. The both agree that WAR (and SCH I think they agreed on) are just very well balanced compared to other jobs and that of course equilibrium's CD, especially for Defiance's use (insane self heal), is too short.

MogTalk w/Frosty, Xeno, and Layla about tanks in FFXIV. It's long, but very informative if anyone is interested listening to the whole thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEBV_zEM7_M

[Shurrikhan]

I wasn't intending it to be misleading, however I know from personal experience how people react at the thought of nerfing WAR in any fashion. They did specifically comment on WAR's infinite TP and the fact that Fell Cleave, etc. can be used with no regard to where you are in a combo chain, in a recent MogTalk. Even a 100 TP gain every 90s combined with Wrath/Abandon use delaying TP consumption gives WAR about the same TP sustain as a DRG, which is very good. I wasn't intending it to say that Xeno and co. WANT those adjustments to WAR, but just that if they were made, they would make some sense. Obviously no WAR main wants to see those things go away. But it just doesn't make sense in the context of all jobs. Its not just the tanks that it is outmatching, its DPS as well (in TP sustain, that is.)

To be honest, even as someone who feels that WAR is a bit too useful compared to its lineup (though by no means wanting to nerf it, only to buff DRK and especially PLD towards it), I can't help but feel like there's nothing really wrong with WAR's infinite TP. I mean, that's not going to save you from having to use Paeon if a fight actually dragged long enough for your physical dps to need it (the Bard himself, even, if all others are cross-Goading NINs...). It's a warrior, the motif of which can be construed towards being endlessly enduring in warfare. As for the Equilibrium self-heal though... that does seem a bit too strong. But at the same time, I'd really, really hate to lose it.

[Sunako]

Highest mt dps and highest dps in tankin stance is different thing? Because in fact ppl mt while in dps stance.

[Syzygian]

To be honest, even as someone who feels that WAR is a bit too useful compared to its lineup (though by no means wanting to nerf it, only to buff DRK and especially PLD towards it), I can't help but feel like there's nothing really wrong with WAR's infinite TP. I mean, that's not going to save you from having to use Paeon if a fight actually dragged long enough for your physical dps to need it (the Bard himself, even, if all others are cross-Goading NINs...). It's a warrior, the motif of which can be construed towards being endlessly enduring in warfare. As for the Equilibrium self-heal though... that does seem a bit too strong. But at the same time, I'd really, really hate to lose it.

Equilibrium was brought down a peg, it wouldn't change the fact that WAR is well designed or an amazing tank. What does well designed even mean? If we're going off the fact that WAR is the best designed tank than what does that mean for DPS or other jobs in the game? How is a DRG or a MNK's design inherently flawed for instance? Where is the line between well-designed and excessive or broken? In my opinion, that line is crossed when it excuses a job entirely from having to worry about a major mechanic of gameplay, in this case, resource management, or even healing. It doesn't feel right to just sweep everything under the rug and give PLD and DRK infinite TP and super-powered self-heals nearly devoid of opportunity cost because then you really WOULD have the problem people yap about where DPS jobs become eclipsed by tanks.

That's just my opinion though, I want to and will edit the OP later on with quotes from the comment section.

[Sir-Meliodas]

Warrior is perfect the way it is, it does not need nerfs, bring the other two tanks up in line to warrior.
As a Warrior main, it's tool kit is fine the way it is as it makes you constantly assess on whether to be more defensive or offensive (you have to sacrifice dps to more defense or sacrifice defense in the name of dps)
Making stack spends interrupt combos is bullshit because overpower already interrupts weapon skill combos, and that is a pain in the ass when tanking mobs.
The idea of warrior is build stacks and spend them, refreshing a stack as stack spending interrupts weapon skill combos would result in it taking longer to use stack spends, which would result in less dps each minute.
Lets just focus on Dark Knight and Paladin here. Like putting all oaths and grit off the gcd, increasing mitigation on shield oath and grit, stuff like that.

[Shurrikhan]

Equilibrium was brought down a peg, it wouldn't change the fact that WAR is well designed or an amazing tank. What does well designed even mean? If we're going off the fact that WAR is the best designed tank than what does that mean for DPS or other jobs in the game? How is a DRG or a MNK's design inherently flawed for instance? Where is the line between well-designed and excessive or broken? In my opinion, that line is crossed when it excuses a job entirely from having to worry about a major mechanic of gameplay, in this case, resource management, or even healing. It doesn't feel right to just sweep everything under the rug and give PLD and DRK infinite TP and super-powered self-heals nearly devoid of opportunity cost because then you really WOULD have the problem people yap about where DPS jobs become eclipsed by tanks.

That's just my opinion though, I want to and will edit the OP later on with quotes from the comment section.

What makes WAR at least feel "good" or "right": Simply beautiful badassness, paired with beautiful simplicity thereof? With a side of versatility and freedom, arsenal built towards straightforward, almost universally useful results?
What makes it balanced... harder to say.

As for resource management on other tanks, I feel like PLD sustain and DRK MT sustain should be improved a bit, but just a bit (e.g. Fast Blade at 60 TP, Blood Weapon usable in Grit for minor healing [mostly for the TP cost reduction]). That being said, most of our current content kind of seems to make Paeon extinct as is, and leaves Goad for the MT or rezes only. It's getting harder and harder to call it a major mechanic of gameplay, and would be even less an issue if Skill Speed were more balanced in bonus DPS per TP against Determination and Critical Strike, such as by reducing base and bonus TP ticks by 20% but having them go off every base GCD instead (does not include effects of Fey Wind, Blood Weapon, Huton, or Greased Lightning), so that Speed builds perform almost identically in TP efficiency/longevity to non-Speed builds in average ST rotations.

[Syzygian]

As for resource management on other tanks, I feel like PLD sustain and DRK MT sustain should be improved a bit, but just a bit (e.g. Fast Blade at 60 TP, Blood Weapon usable in Grit for minor healing [mostly for the TP cost reduction]).

There are TP adjustments for PLD and DRK in the OP.

Grit and Blood Weapon are never going to be usable simultaneously. Its clear that Grit is their MT stance and Blood Weapon is their OT "stance" in the form of a buff and that's the intended design. They won't combine the two any more than they'll let you Fell Cleave in Defiance or get extra autos in ShO.

Anyhoo, lets get off the nerf WAR topic. I don't want that to be what this thread is about, and the adjustments to WAR in the OP barely qualify as nerfs and change next to nothing about the flawlessness of the job's design, IMO. I intended what adjustments I did include to make the task of "bringing PLD and DRK up to WAR's level" more realistic. There were a lot more adjustments included to PLD, and a handful to DRK.

[alkhemyXIII]

It seems that the OP made a goofy thread about nerfing WARs and got a bit of backlash or pushback.

So now, what he/she does is make this wonderful, informative thread... and eventually does what?

Talks about nerfing WARs.

Umm... NO!

To add on he/she uses Xeno, Layla and Frosty, as mentioned a number of times, as fuel to validate his/her theory. As if they are THE authorities on what we want as players. Personally, on their opinion, I could give a ----.

How many abilities did PLD trade with WAR in it's 2.1 fix?

How 'bout this, since we want PLD to take/trade skills so badly... how 'bout DRK trade it's high-power potencies (it's so... strong and.. dark!) or some of its AOE ability (didn't people complain about redundancy in DRK's skill set?) or some of its oGC-ness (it plays so... fast and... dark!). Lawd knows PLD needs it.

Bad thing is, this was a real good post until the end.

Should've called this "Let's Nerf WAR... Yet again... the Remix."

[Reynhart]

Suggestion for additionnal effect on Sheltron.
It should block the next attack "in front of you" wether you're the target or not (Based on the size of the animation). This way, Sheltron could be used to protect others when you're not MT, and giving you access to Shield Swipe.