A Tank Balance Megathread

[Syzygian]

I've only had time to give this a quick glance, but I'm liking what I'm reading so far, especially in regards to Pld.

One addition that I would make to the Pld adjustments is reducing the CD timer of Bulwark. As it is now, Bulwark and Awareness are the only two Pld moves that a Pld gets less synergy out of than Wars/Drks, because the CD timers are far too different. This would be fine if they had individual utility, but they don't. Pld's only ever use the two moves together, because Awareness increases the proc odds for Bulwark's shield swipes, thus increasing mitigation. Because the two timers don't line up, Pld's often end up sitting on Awareness for additional time (essentially extending the CD timer of that move artificially), just so they can use it with Bulwark for additional utility.

In comparison, War's have Raw Intuition which lines up perfectly with the timer of Awareness. If you pop them together they come back around together, and you can keep using them in sync. Drk's don't have quite the same efficiency, but the timer for Awareness actually works out so that you can use Awareness with every second Dark Dance (essentially following the defensive rotation of Dark Arts-DD > Awareness - DD. etc). Bulwark and Awareness do not share the same synergy. You can't use it on every second Bulwark without pausing your rotation of Bulwark, and you can't use it with every Bulwark without pausing your use of Awareness. That should be changed.

It might also be prudent to switch the "slashing debuff" to RA rather than RoH. For one, added mitigation on a Pld's main tanking combo is not a bad thing. Given that RoH is used more frequently in MT position, Pld would be able to steadily reduce incoming dmg. RA, on the other hand, is only effectively used once every 4th combo(*as it is now, and assuming the Pld is keeping the Str down debuff of RoH up 100% of the time). Currently Pld's can follow the combo rotation of RoH>GB>RoH>RA>GB>RoH>RA>GB>RoH etc. This way, a Pld's Raid dmg utility would go up as a OT (Following the rotation of GB>RA>RA>GB>RA>RA etc) rather than MT'ing. That being said, with your modifications to Pld hate generation it may be possible to interchange the two debuffs for additonal dmg while mitigating. If the increase in Hate gen from your changes allows a Pld to start a fight with their RA combo instead of RoH, it would be possible to switch the debuffs without much ill effect. It just depends on if the priority lies with mitigation or dmg, for a Pld.

Nice, very well written, and thought out read. I appericate it thank you.

But I am kinda confused about your changes to Rage of Halone, since I main Paladin. How would Paladin's combo rotation work now? RoH > GB > RA > RoH > RA > GB?

My Concerns:

1. Rage of Halone with your emnity buffs to RoH it might be a issue like Warrior has currently OTing, and might rip aggro off the MT, since if you give RoH Warrior's slashing debuff you will want it up all the time. Should buffs or debuffs be applied to main aggro combos? Why not put the slashing debuff on Royal Authority instead?

2. How would I even combo Halone to keep 100% up time on the slashing debuff? I know I will want to use RoH first, and then other combos afterwords to get the most benefit, but I am always seeing a drop off on slashing debuff. The timer does not add up for a three combo system. 20secs on slashing debuff is too short.

-Combo Example-
(Using 2.5gcd, same as above combo)

Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Rage of Halone(slashing debuff applied) > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority > Fast Blade > Savage Blade (slashing debuff falls off) > Rage of Halone > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > etc, and repeat

I always get the slashing debuff to fall off right after Savage Blade, before I can apply another RoH again. So there will be 2.5secs gap between periods I can reapply the slashing debuff with another RoH. The slashing debuff needs to change to 24secs imo to work for Pld that uses 3 combos. I am assuming this is the combo you were thinking of too, since Goring Blade's new 30sec DoT lines up well with this set up. If not what were you thinking?

3. And no offense I think this RoH change is actually a nerf to Paladin's current possible dps output, if it was the one to upkeep the slashing debuff up 100% of the time. I'll try to use math, but this is not my thing either, so feel free to correct me if my numbers are wrong, since like I said this is not my thing.

New Combo(Same as the above) upkeep slashing debuff up 100% of the time, also assuming slashing debuff is increased to 24secs, and using the new 30sec dot given to GB.

-new combo rotation-

RoH > GB > RA > RoH > RA > GB > etc

Fast Blade - 150 + (5 x 150)1.1 = 975
Savage Blade - 200 + (3 x 200)1.1 = 860
Rage of Halone - 260 + (260)1.1 = 546
Royal Authority - (2 x 340)1.1 = 748
Riot Blade - (2 x 230)1.1 = 506
Goring Blade - ((540+80 for 2 more ticks, right?) + 220(can't include the dot dmg since it is at the tail end of the combo))1.1 = 924

Total = 4,559 potency


-old/current combo rotation-

GB > RA > RA > GB > RA > RA > etc

Fast Blade - 6 x 150 = 900
Savage Blade - 4 x 200 = 800
Royal Authority - 4 x 340 = 1360
Riot Blade - 2 x 230 = 460
Goring Blade - 2 x 540 = 1080

Total = 4600 potency, they are basically the same...but if we can add a Warrior, and it is still the one applying the slashing debuff.

-old/current combo rotation w/warrior applying slashing debuff-

Fast Blade - 150 + (5 x 150)1.1 = 975
Savage Blade - 200 + (3 x 200)1.1 = 860
Royal Authority - (4 x 340)1.1 = 1496
Riot Blade - (2 x 230)1.1 = 506
Goring Blade - (2 x 540)1.1 = 1188
*This all assumes warrrior needs 2 gcds to apply the slashing debuff, and with a pld likely using shield lob to start an encounter, before starting thier combo, so Storm's Eye should be up before Pld uses a GB.

Total = 5025 potency, a dps gain in the game currently. Idk about your change, it kinda bugs me somehow to know I will get a dps decrease as a tank without a warrior doing it, but still also nerfs the war/drk combo dmg, making pld fit better in comps then it does nowt, so the change with Pld having slashing debuff might be better in the end.


Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or if there is a better combo.


Personally, I would still like to see RoH get a potency increase instead, and idk how I would feel about losing -10% physical down debuff either, but I know I want a way for spells to not impact Paladin damage as much as it does now, again thx for the read.

I will give some thought to theorizing adjustments that will make a more reliable and stead PLD DPS rotation for MTing/OTing later. Crunched for time atm.

Nice objective and constructive thread.

I would like to point out that it feels best when SE would balance all jobs, tanks in this case, through "upgrades". That said, there are some very useful changes given by the community. Maybe you can edit your thread and write the most popular, objective changes underneath the reapective tank:
(
Paladin
X changes

Dark Knigt
X changes
)

I do find it a bit misleading how you and others claim Xeno and Layla called very specific things overpowered. The both agree that WAR (and SCH I think they agreed on) are just very well balanced compared to other jobs and that of course equilibrium's CD, especially for Defiance's use (insane self heal), is too short.

I wasn't intending it to be misleading, however I know from personal experience how people react at the thought of nerfing WAR in any fashion. They did specifically comment on WAR's infinite TP and the fact that Fell Cleave, etc. can be used with no regard to where you are in a combo chain, in a recent MogTalk. Even a 100 TP gain every 90s combined with Wrath/Abandon use delaying TP consumption gives WAR about the same TP sustain as a DRG, which is very good. I wasn't intending it to say that Xeno and co. WANT those adjustments to WAR, but just that if they were made, they would make some sense. Obviously no WAR main wants to see those things go away. But it just doesn't make sense in the context of all jobs. Its not just the tanks that it is outmatching, its DPS as well (in TP sustain, that is.)