Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

[GTANJ]

Did we seriously just end this argument? For real?

Yeh. I won .

[KaitlanKela]

Yeh. I won .

You know what, I am SO okay with that. Let's be friends.

[Kosmos992k]

Im just going to conclude that you're trolling, because you are so grossly misinformed that no one should even reply to you with a vaild argument.

Can you explain why what UBERHAXED posted is invalid please? What UBERHAXED posted about rotations, how they are designed and what parsers can/can't do seems pretty solid and based on basic math and logic. What is it that has been missed, and how does it invalidate their argument?

I'm not looking to start a fight here, I simply want to understand why you think that what UBERHAXED has posted is invalid.

Just skimming over the discussion it seems like this is the gist of it;
Damage formula can't be changed. Skill potency can't be changed. Since neither of these can be altered by the player, they can (and should) be used to design rotations using simple math to evaluate one rotation against the other. The actual output of the rotations depends on gear and RNG. Gear is going to be the same for every move, so once your gear set is in place, it becomes one of the constants in the calculation. That leaves RNG. In idealized conditions, you can hit peak DPS executing the best rotation in your best gear, though actual output will vary slightly based on RNG.

A parser might help you tune your gear more quickly than a battle log and pencil/paper will, but the process is the same.

All you're left with after that is actual execution of rotations during content, and there are very many factors at work there that prevent ideal performance. Those factors, combined with the RNG aspect of critical hits and slight variation in damage dealt each time make the output of each player depend heavily on transient factors that only occur during battle. Since each run of content is slightly different based on all the various factors involved, you can see multiple different outcomes and markedly different numbers in your parser each time.

In light of that, how can a parser truly help you develop a better rotation? I honestly don't see how it can. UBERHAXED has used logic, reality and basic math and I see no flaw their argument.

[KaitlanKela]

-snip-

Can't you see we're bonding here? You're messing up our party, our cake and my feels.

Seriously though, my response to this is that you guys don't think parsers help with getting good rotations and improving gameplay, which can be done effectively without it. Other people disagree and would like to use it. Hopefully both parties can see that both methods have their moments and their advantages and optimally would use them together. It's not like you have to pick one. Except right now we don't even have the choice. Some people would like to have a choice. It's not harming you to add it if you don't think you need it. So, what's the problem exactly?

ETA: just to be clear with the gif I am just joking. It was just funny that this happened right when everyone else was so chill

[GTANJ]

Hi kosmos!

[Kosmos992k]

Seriously though, my response to this is that you guys don't think parsers help with getting good rotations and improving gameplay, which can be done effectively without it. Other people disagree and would like to use it. Hopefully both parties can see that both methods have their moments and their advantages and optimally would use them together. It's not like you have to pick one. Except right now we don't even have the choice. Some people would like to have a choice. It's not harming you to add it if you don't think you need it. So, what's the problem exactly?

Given that I'd be on board for a personal parser, and would not oppose a party based on in party finder (by consent), I have no issues, I'm just trying to understand why UBERHAXED underlying argument is being called invalid. It should be noted that UBERHAXED professes to be pro-parser.

ETA: just to be clear with the gif I am just joking. It was just funny that this happened right when everyone else was so chill

NP, I figured as much
Who is that in the gif BTW, I feel I should recognize the face, either way lipreading it it sounds like an English accent for some reason...lol

Hi kosmos!

Nyah! Hi, good to see you.

[KaitlanKela]

Given that I'd be on board for a personal parser, and would not oppose a party based on in party finder (by consent), I have no issues, I'm just trying to understand why UBERHAXED underlying argument is being called invalid. It should be noted that UBERHAXED professes to be pro-parser.


NP, I figured as much
Who is that in the gif BTW, I feel I should recognize the face, either way lipreading it it sounds like an English accent for some reason...lol


Nyah! Hi, good to see you.

It's Benedict Cumberbatch.

In that case, I'll let Oddett answer.

Let's go back to having a rave.

Also, I g2g, so laters.

[Kosmos992k]

It's Benedict Cumberbatch.

Yes, I should know that face, and yes...English accent.

In that case, I'll let Oddett answer.

Let's go back to having a rave.

Also, I g2g, so laters.

Coolness.

::blue haired cat @ rave::

[Odett]

snip

can't quote you entirely due to post limit.

Ok, I was referencing mostly their hypothetical conversation with the 2 DRG's in A3S, and their exaggerated situation about how a parser worked, but with your point of skill potency and such, yes, you both have the right of it. That does not change. You can use math and the battle log to figure out how much damage you're doing, and if you and/or they can do that, that's great for both of you, but many players can't, and for those who can, it's an extremely cumbersome action. Yes, the process is the same, but a parser will do that quicker for you, so it expedites the process whenever you want to see what rotation works best, DPS wise. When I was in college and was taking Statistics, I could work out the problems by hand and spend 10 extra minutes, or I could input them in my calculator.

Here's an example, when NIN came out, I was really really excited for that job, since this game never had a "rogue"-like archetype, and that's what I went for in all my previous MMO's. I was lucky and had the next 2 days off work and school, and got NIN to 50 in those 2 days. Seeing as the job was very new, I had to come up with the ideal rotation myself, as there were no guides up yet that I could reference. Now, using what I knew about the previous jobs, I could reason that putting up my DoTs first would be best, so I could go for:

Mutilate (DoT)->Spinning Edge->Shadow Fang(DoT)->Spinning Edge-> Gust Slash->Dancing Edge

OR, I could prioritize applying my slashing debuff first, and even though the DoTs do not benefit from this, their initial potency would, as well as they skills I'd have to cycle through in order to get to them, so I also wanted to try

Spinning Edge->Gust Slash->Dancing Edge->Spinning Edge->Shadow Fang(DoT)->Mutilate(DoT)

I asked one of my friends who had a parser if they could help me out, and I tried both openers on a training dummy. The second rotation granted me the most DPS. Again, yes, this could have been fixed by math, but I am honestly not very good at it, and I do not see the reason to go through so much trouble when a program could make this easier for me. This is even more prevalent in long fights, where the combat log becomes a huge garbled mess.

Someone else a few pages back also made a great point that a parser would allow them to give The Balance to the highest DPS in the group, as that buff increases damage based on a percentage, and not by a fixed amount, so using The Balance on someone parsing 1.2k DPS would be more beneficial than using it on someone parsing 900 DPS.

Stupiduglytaru also mentioned an instance where someone wanted to kick them for being a MCH due to low percieved DPS, due to the stigma the job has, but someone with a parser pointed out that they actually had the highest DPS in the group, and I've myself encountered instances where the lowest-parsing player will either ragequit or blame someone else for a failed DPS check. A parser would add more transparency to this situation.

The previous two examples are only things that can be done with a group-wide parser.

[Ryel]

Please, step by step, tell me how a parser giving me a 1245 will tell me to use BoTD before a phase change. In detail.

I think I still missed the part where the parser actually improves your dps. It's a measurement tool which only tell you how much damage you did at the end/time. Knowing this arbitrary scalar value will not tell you to put raging strikes before the iron jaws reapplication, common sense does (which incidentally does not require a parser). It's only literal use is to determine if a piece of gear you swapped was beneficial. Parsers cannot improve your rotation, just as your boss telling you that you are productive only 46% of the time cannot improve your productivity. Every single person (disclaimer: assuming people use a brain) knows when they perform poorly for a fight. Every time you deviate from the perfect dummy rotation, you have a dps loss. A parser does not tell you what the perfect rotation is, nor does it give you messages about what you did that was not part of the perfect rotation. Using a parser will not improve your rotation. You should have known your perfect rotation from the start! Please do not argue in favor of using a parser if you do not understand it's usage and what the number means.

I'm pro-parser btw; I know exactly how to use the values that are issued.

Others have given comparable examples of how this works but since you asked me I'll answer as well.

A parser giving you a 1245 will not tell you to when use BoTD by itself, in fact nobody would look at it that way anyway as that's a prime example of not correctly reading the information.

There's a large difference between doing the calculations when it comes to the potency of skills etc to create the perfect rotation before hand, practicing it ad nauseam on a striking dummy and then actually performing the rotation successfully in live content with the variables that are boss moves and other party members.

When players use the term "improving their rotation" they don't mean that the parser is suddenly going to start spitting out increased damage and adding chunks of DPS, they also don't mean it's going to provide a brand new step by step rotation that couldn't have been done on paper prior to the fight.

What they do mean however is that a person parsing their performance in live content can look at other examples to get an idea of how well they should be performing in a fight and contrary to what you may believe there are many players out there that simply do not know this.

Your example with the two Dragoons doesn't really make any sense in the context of this conversation.

Saying "well this Dragoon did 1300 DPS why didn't you!!!!??" is not the same as someone asking "Can someone tell me what the average DPS of a DRG in this fight is around my ilvl and stats? I'd like to know how much i should be doing." this is where someone can respond with "Well the average burst assuming you're doing your rotation right is usually around 1300-1400 DPS in the first phase give or take with a sustained afterwards of around 1000-1200-ish for the rest of the fight but various factors can change that obviously" this gives that Dragoon something to shoot for when evaluating their own performance.

If That DRG looks at the parser and sees they're only doing 800 burst at the start and start dropping down to 600 sustained they obviously know they are doing something incorrectly but they may have to look at and evaluate their performance to see where they went wrong. Maybe they weren't mechanically fast enough? Maybe they need to adjust their positioning and the way they avoid boss telegraphs in order to maximize their DPS up-time which should be common sense but you'd be surprised how many players don't realize how much stepping away from the boss for an extra GCD or not dodging properly can impact their DPS, they may think it's just 20 points here and there when in reality you could end up dropping a few hundred points instead, which doesn't sound like much until it keeps happening over time and you wipe at 1%, a parser will show you this when you compare the data from multiple attempts.

As for things like BoTD, GL, etc that yes should have 100% up-time, historically there have been many cases of a party doing either too much or two little DPS causing awkward phase transitions where it falls off. It's not about when you activate it but entirely about where you might have to alter your rotation to extend it, the number of times I've heard "Damn i lost GL, Enochian, BoTD, etc" because of an awkward phase are too numerous to count over two years of content ranging from Ex primals that are notorious for lots of jumps when pushed (see: Leviathan, Ifrit, Titan, Garuda) or bosses that you need to come near full stop on DPS so that you don't wipe the party (Melusine, Nael, Bahamut) a parser doesn't change the math in any way, but it does show you your performance counting the variable that is live play.

You just told me that I should build a prototype space ship and keep reinventing the wheel, making random "design" decision instead of spending the overhead designing it properly using physics. If you some how think this a valid argument, then I'd advise you to keep it to yourself so you don't confirm to everyone your degree of stupidity.

Funny that you say this, because we don't rely entirely on the math when building things like spaceships we extensively test and re-test every single part down to the bolt before we conduct a launch and even then there are times when we get it wrong or something happens that we cannot foresee that wasn't taken into account. It could be as simple as human error or something entirely beyond the scope of our predictions, you can look up the space shuttle challenger and see how even though everything in the math was probably correct a simple O-ring malfunction can cause disastrous results that defied their predictions and nobody saw coming, sure we know exactly what happened now, but that's because we were able to asses and analyze the data after the fact.

Additionally while we might not reinvent the wheel, we've surely innovated it about a billion (not an actual number) times to suit our various needs, from the materials we construct it with to altering it's form, changing things from the draft board in response to live feedback is exactly how we make progress.