Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

[Kaurie]

What I'm getting is that you (or maybe you're just representing the other perspective, I'm not sure?) are concerned that this will magnify harassment (either by the tool itself being abused or because of an increase in frustration as a result of the tool being abused)? Is there a reason you think that making parser-based harassment (and retaliatory lashing-out) a ban-able offense wouldn't curb the abuse at least to the level of 'toxicity' that we're already seeing? I'm no expert, butusing parsers seems to be standard fare in Japan and they seem to have even more positive communities than we do in NA/EU.

I am working to see both sides of the argument, but am pro-parser. I think parser-based harassment is already a ban-able offense, and that is why I don't think that we will see excessively increased amounts of harassment. However, I acknowledge it is a possibility.

You also mention that you don't think a personal parser would help sufficiently. IIRC (though admittedly I did only skim the thread), this is because a number without a benchmark or comparison doesn't have a lot of utility. I agree, which is why I think linking it into the lodestone which gathers data from all players and then provides the critical statistics for comparison, mean and max, would raise the utility of the parser sufficiently.

I really like your idea of linking it to the lodestone for increased data. However, I think that having that real time group numbers is quite useful for adjusting behavior. For example, a newbie at level 41 SMN may go to Cutters Cry, and at the same time I go in as my SMN. This newbie on his built in parser sees that I am pulling double his DPS, so he asks why and what he can do. Obviously, I'd explain that I am down-leveled and over-geared for the content and that is why there is some descrepancy, but would also take the opportunity to provide tips on his rotation. Conversely, without the parser, we both queue in, do the dungeon, say Hi and Thanks all and that's it.

[KaitlanKela]

I think that having that real time group numbers is quite useful for adjusting behavior. -snip-

You know, I've really been enjoying this exchange. And I like that you're fairly weighing the merits of both sides. Thanks for that.


I definitely think there's going to be abuse of a parser no matter what. I am 100% convinced. I'm not convinced that it's going to be handled by the moderation poorly. I believe SE can take care of the abuse, because the reporting/moderation is already a feature that they take very seriously and people have had success with it (At least regarding harassment. RTM, on the other hand >.> <.< lol).

I also believe that if we are honest and realistic with ourselves that most raiding PC users are already using a parser and that the PS players can't. That's just not right. Especially when PS players are being judged on their DPS and they may not even know there is a problem until they're told. And they may not even be told for a while, they may just be kicked repeatedly. At least if they could see their numbers, they might know why and have some idea of how to fix it. And they might be able to catch on and improve sooner. But right now PS users are just out of luck.

Regarding real-time group parsing: Taking your example, the app would provide information on average and max for CC in general, and the three bosses, by class. Hey, while we're dreaming let's throw in ilvl tiers for non-raid content. If he's paying attention he sees his dps is below average and he'll ask about it, same as before. Or he'll go online and ask. We lose two things by keeping it personal: 1.people offering advice as result of looking at other's numbers. People already can kinda tell if someone needs help and if they're inclined to help they'll do it, parse or no. 2.being able to get real-time advice on your specific class assuming there's nobody in the dungeon who can help. This is an inconvenience and it might be enough to raise some questions. I'll give that to you - it's a good point. It also still raises the issue of unfairness. As long as there's a real-time group parse out there and not in the game, PC players will have an edge.

I think at this point it's up to SE to determine the best solution. I think there are plenty of viable parsing options that would improve the game's meta that they could choose from. I don't think not giving us toys because we're children who can't handle it is a good rationale for pretty much anything, so I'm against that.

[UBERHAXED]

Go to jail? Seriously? Let's remain civil and mature in this discussion. Trial and error is a major part of proving theories

Yes, spreading misinformation is a crime, similar to dividing by zero.

Yes there is

Circular logic? Parsers are verified by using mathematical basis in game. That's how we find bugs.

That is what proving a theory wrong is. It is finding a flaw in the theory. Theories are proven wrong via running several consistent experiments and monitoring the data. That is what a parser helps with.

Since you intentionally using words out of context... We don't make mathematical axioms, postulates, and corollaries about stuff in game. The word "theory" means mathematically. If you find a flaw with someone doing algebra or arithmetic, that means that person doesn't know algebra or arithmetic, not that all of algebra or arithmetic is wrong (which incidentally cannot be possible since we would need to use algebra to prove there something is wrong with algebra). But I mean I thought I didn't have to spell out in parenthesis the contextual meaning of words with multiple English meanings.

This barely makes any sense as a question, but essentially a perfect rotation may not transfer well in to every fight (due to mechanics, jumps, adds etc). In order to illustrate my answer, I added square brackets into your quote.

You cannot do higher damage than this rotation, there fore you have a damage ceiling, no matter how many time you "test" with your parser in any fight. That's what the statement means. It might help you comprehend if you don't quote out of ocntext.

Correct, that is how one comes up with their theory, by testing math. That said, due to the complexities of all the various skills, buffs that can be applied via your team and yourself, potions as well as debuffs and mechanics from given fights, it's great to test your said theory with a tool that will tell you if you're doing what you expect.

No it's not. You have no idea even what you are talking about. Aside from you using the wrong meaning of the word theory, damage is random. Potencies are not. This is the only thing you can compare. Unfortunately, a parser cannot give you a "potency/second" figure that is accurate (how did the parser know that you got the positional potency or combo potency). We don't build rotations around parsers. We verify there are no bugs in the parser by doing the rotation and comparing against the mathematically estimates given by the potency and damage formula. The amount of misinformation is astonishing.

Well, you go in to the dungeon and use BoTD at one point several times and see your numbers. Then you go in and try using it at another point and see how your numbers change. This will help you understand when is best to use it.

If we are doing this then counting the permutations of all possible moves across the duration of the fight (which varies due to dps variance) you will die of age before your trial an error will tell you what's the minimum with a boss with 10000 HP. Or... you can use common sense and use attacks before buffs fall off. Also... lol go into a dungeon... Are we even talking about the same thing here? I can assure you (by reading the skill) that BoTD had no hidden effects that affect your dps. That aside (a serious comment) BoTD should be up 100% of the time. That was intentionally facetious. And whatever minute change you see in the parser is problem due to the fact that damage is RANDOM, and not that you found some hidden effect of a skill.

For example, maybe I want to use Raging Strikes after I dot up, use paintflare/fester/fester/dreadwyrm, so I can have both raging, deathflare and x-drac pot up for another fester + ruin II + tridisaster and deathflare. However, in X fight, when I do that, I end up having 6 seconds of raging strikes ticking away while Y boss is jumping. Common sense would tell me that is a waste, but the parser can help me see exactly by how much of a waste. Perhaps it wasn't a waste at all if I deathflare before the jump, as all I lose is a few ticks on the dot. Perhaps, I need to hold all of those skills til after the jump and should just use Ruin I. Alright, so there are various situations, and I can probably do the math for every single encounter I run in to, but do we play this game to sit around with a calculator? Probably not, what is great is having a tool that shows us how are actions are changing with various attempts and ideas.

Not sure if serious. I gave this example intentionally. Parsers cannot determine this seeing as we can't read DoT damage... All you will have a incorrect information compared against other incorrect information based on a number with random variance. In every case without fail, just doing the potency calculation (which, not surprisingly already resolved for you in the optimal rotations) will tell you what will give the highest DPS. Also lol calculator. Do you get a calculator to verify that 9+12 is 21? Because I'm pretty sure it works the other way around. Joking aside, calculators logic are build using arithmetic. We don't build arithmetic around calculators.

This depends how you want to read in to what people are saying. No one has claimed that a parser actually increases DPS on it's own. Everyone is saying it's a tool that lets you see if you are performing poorly, and will give you feedback with how changes in your playstyle affect this.

A person knows without a parser how poorly they performed for a fight. You don't need a parser to realize "I messed up my rotation". So you did AS1 and ended with 1000 dps. Is that good or bad? What does the number even mean? You know before the fight ended how well you did.

False, they can help you determine how your rotation is working and provide you the information which helps with adjusting. I am not saying a parser will improve your rotation on its own, but it will help towards that goal. Further, you can use the tool to see how you compare to other people of your same job and gear level, and ask for pointers when necessary.

What does "is working" even mean? If you're doing the same moves as someone else and get different results that means either 1. Their gear (such as weapon damage) have larger multipliers. Or 2. Random factor, such as critical hits (uncontrollable) or regular damage variance (uncontrollable). If you aren't doing the same moves, then you should be fixing that before you start looking at damage numbers. If you're not using the optimal rotation (found by doing math, not parsing btw) then you cannot perform better than someone who does (not the same as having higher dps, seeing as damage is random). If you really wanted help to improve your rotation, then you would have already either did your searches and found it online or you would look at the potencies yourself. You're digging you're digging a hole for yourself. Are you saying that there cannot possible as of this current moment be any good (performs at the virtuoso level) players on PS3 or PS4? Because they exist and they got good my using some sense.

Having a parser that gave you DPS once wouldn't help you improve your performance either. Parsers give real time data on how well you are doing.

Knowing your SAT score will not help you the next time you take the SAT. You know during the test how well or poorly you did. You also seem to be misinterpreting what the use of a parser is. Parsers are useful for retrospective analysis. In real time you need to look and the screen and play the game. If you want real time reinforcement, then look at the flying text.

That is not true and is offensive to anyone who doesn't. I have played with plenty of people who perform very poorly, but have no idea that they did. These people were not stupid, they just didn't think about everything the same way you or I did.

Disclaimer message still hold true. Moving on...

I mostly agree with this statement, even though it is factually incorrect. AoE can increase your DPS well above a dummy parse. The question is, is that AoE actually helpful or not?

[/QUOTE]
We are talking about the same thing right? In RAIDS (i.e. the only place where dps even remotely matters) you should be measuring damage. All damage counts. Also you can stack dummies next to each other to simulate damage. The only situations were this does not translate cleanly is when we have bosses with different defense values than dummies. Which incidentally makes number comparison different. But you know what doesn't change? Potencies. Also you don't need a parser to realize that you can just painflare to do more damage than fester when you hit both the boss and alarums. You do need to able to count on your fingers though. (1x300 < 2x200).

[Kit-Kat]

I just found the whole idea of it not being allowed because of harrasment kinda stupid. There will be harrasment with or without parser anyway. If I get into a party that's not meeting the DPS requirements for the fight thus not letting us advance, I would rather know who is holding everyone back and give advice or either replace. People would then complain they're being replaced because of a parse, but honestly, I would rather replace someone that is holding the party back instead of abandoning the fight and disbanding a whole party, which seems to be what's happening. So what do you prefer, replacing and eventually clearing content, or not fight said content at all because of disbands.
People need to stop acting like kids and victims. Are you being harrased in a normal dungeon because of your dps?
a) Improve.
b) Ignore them.
c) Kick them. If the kick doesn't go through, that means your playstyle doesn't match the rest of the party.

[Kazumac]

People have stated a positive outcome.. not positive outcomes. The negatives FAR outweigh any "positive" it "may" bring to the table. You want DPS to get better, have Yoshi P force them to go through tutorials that show them the simple rotations, the positionals required and the weaving of skills between other skills. To assume that by adding an app that throws numbers out will somehow magically make all DPSers better is a false conclusion. And as you said, jerks will be jerks.. and now you are giving these jerks more tools to be even bigger jerks with.

I have only ever been kicked for low dps in this game out of my 10+ years of playing MMOs. The only game I have been kicked is the one without a parser or at least a means to discuss quantifiable dps in a constructive manner. I was #2 dps (8 man content) during those attempts but could not actually defend myself other than telling them the problem was not with me.

I personally have only been negatively affected by the current state of dps affairs in this game. So all the anecdotes in the world, all the theories about wrecking the community and arguments for running races without stopwatches being good for the community don't seem more than fear mongering. The negatives for parsers are just as much "maybe scenarios" as the positives. Both arguments are filled with anecdotes and possibilities. My personal experience leads me to a different conclusions than the anti parser crowd.

Parsers will not make people better but it will let some people know where they really stand. I mean how many times have you seen a group failing on a dps check and the guy doing half the damage says. "Well it can't be me, I've cleared this before." Yeah buddy, I'm sorry you have no real gauge of your ability and previous experiences have led you to false conclusions.

The rabbit hole of removing tools to prevent harassment is a place I don't want to go. As you said jerks will be jerks. They just now have real information, so they are just educated jerks now. At least everyone is educated. If you get kicked for low dps and you are doing fine, you can laugh it off as I did in my anecdote. Or if you have low dps for the content you know you've got some learning/practice to do.

Why do we think having our head in the sand is a good thing? Why are we arguing to remain ignorant of how we perform? Why are we, as a community, letting a handful of jerks (or fear of them) determine what features we get in this game? This does not seem like a healthy outcome. I'm all for discussing curbing harassment but I personally don't feel limiting tools is the solution and I don't like fear of harassment determining the direction of our game.

[GTANJ]

The reality is that the PS4 version will never be on par with the PC version sheerly because there isn't enough outside resources that people can use to create something like a parser. Do I think Squeenix should build this kind of stuff into the game? Sure, it would be extremely useful, but it's probably never going to happen.

[KaitlanKela]

-snip-

What I'm getting from this is that you don't think parsers are necessary? I'm not going to argue with you about that. I don't use one, as I am still working on HW content and I'm not even level 60 so I couldn't work on an 'optimal' rotation with theory or parser right now because I don't have all my skills and in two levels it would be obsolete.

However, if you don't think it's necessary and you prefer to use potency and theory, please do. Don't use it. Never look at it. There is nothing to say that by implementing a parser it is now absolutely required in order to play the game or raid. But the argument about depriving people who would use it of it because you don't think it's necessary is kinda lame. You're essentially telling people that everyone should play your way.

Please correct me if you're meaning something different.

[Kaurie]

Snip

I disagree with almost everything you said, and am fairly unappreciative of the offensive tone you take while debating. So, I am not going to bother picking apart your faulty argument.

One thing to note, the part where you mention that parsers cannot accurately account for DOTs and the other part which talks about if parsers are inaccurately adding up your damage is the entire reason why I personally want an official parser from Square Enix (one which will use their internal data to be more accurate).

On your last note, not all damage counts. For example, on Faust, my numbers are significantly higher than anyone elses (as a SMN) due to added AoE damage from shadowflare/deathflare etc, but the damage on the adds doesn't matter. It's the damage on Faust that matters. When looking at that, I often fall to 2nd of the 4 DPS.

[KaitlanKela]

The reality is that the PS4 version will never be on par with the PC version sheerly because there isn't enough outside resources that people can use to create something like a parser. Do I think Squeenix should build this kind of stuff into the game? Sure, it would be extremely useful, but it's probably never going to happen.

Well, SE did decided to implement the PS version, so they've kinda committed to at least attempting to support it. If they don't have the resources to implement it, then they should just say that. Until then, I see no harm in asking for it. You may be right, it may never happen, but people still as SE to fix paladin, so...why the hell not?

[GTANJ]

Well, SE did decided to implement the PS version, so they've kinda committed to at least attempting to support it. If they don't have the resources to implement it, then they should just say that. Until then, I see no harm in asking for it. You may be right, it may never happen, but people still as SE to fix paladin, so...why the hell not?

The problem is that SE is not the one implementing the parser on PC. They will never implement one and they will probably never support mods for the game officially, so a parser happening on PS4 isn't likely.