Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

[Kosmos992k]

In nearly every thread this debate happens whenever a study, or evidence lending to the pro parser side of the argument is raised you summarily ignore it and continue posting what you want to continue posting.

I could easily say the same thing to you and several other posters. Since you think I've ignored something, let's dig in shall we?

The reddit thread that Shana linked was from my earlier post which you seem to have skipped over because it didn't agree with your narrative of the situation.

I haven't skipped over it, player fear of harassment is not central to the discussion in that topic.

Your argument is that harassment is a very real fear to a group of players, however i linked multiple sources that discuss that while a few players may feel that way,

So it is in fact a real fear to some.

in game communities that include or allow public parsing features the results show that the overwhelming result if anything is apathy from the majority of the playerbase and that the number of harassment incidents border on the insignificantly small for the benefits the tool provides.

You've linked multiple sources. OK, there are multiple posts in this topic that discuss the opposite experience, the most exhaustively covered example being DCUO. You can link things, so can I or others. It's no surprise that there are many different experiences, points of view or school's of thought on the matter, it's not a cut and dried topic.

Had you properly read the reddit thread that was posted (which by your admission you didn't) the player who admits that his findings are anecdotal and based on a admittedly small sample size line up with what many in this and all of the other threads that have discussed this are saying, that harassment concerning performance occurs with or without a parser i encourage you to actually read it this time as the results are quite interesting and very relevant to the topic at hand.

Yes, I know that. That's why I want to know what it is that people think I'm ignoring. I have never said that harassment concerning performance is not already a problem, on the contrary, I've posted about that very thing before. I'm well aware that there is a small sub-set of players who harass others who do not perform to *their* standard.

Now, before I continue, I want to make this quite clear, everything I am about to write depends on how any official in-game parser is implemented, and how it functions.

The point I have made, and will continue to make, is that an official parser in the game hands those players a 'stick' with which to beat other players. You can say that they would harass others anyway, and I will agree, they probably would. But by condoning parser use with an official parser, the in-game climate changes to one where it's considered OK to criticize other players performance. Now, if, as I discussed with Kazumac, there was a personal parser, it wouldn't contribute to player harassment, the same jerks would continue to be jerks and the world would turn. If there were an opt-in group parser for pre-made groups, it would reduce any scope for abuse since players voluntarily opt-in to being parsed in a group situation. Once again, jerks will be jerks and the world will turn.

Just in case you're counting, that's two kinds of parser implementation I don't object to, and don't think would cause players to fear harassment more than they already do from that small group of jerks who can't help but yell at others about their performance.

Moving on from that...

Why it's convenient for you to ignore it is the same as was said before, by glossing over or outright refusing to address any of the sources of various people (the developers of this game included) talking about how parsing isn't a real community fear your counterargument holds little weight if you can't properly dispute evidence contrary to your claims.

Now see, that's a different argument. In the previous paragraph you talked about the threads you linked to and that the thing you claim I ignore is that people already harass others over their performance. Whether or not developers believe that there is a legitimate fear in the community is a very subjective thing, because it depends very much on the game, community and developer, along with the type of game and how parsing is implemented. Developers frequently mis-read the community and what the wants or needs of the community are. This forum itself provides daily documentation of many, many times when developers have thought the community wanted something and the community has proven the developer to be wrong.

Looking at your links;
The Real Problem with Parsers
21 pages of the usual to and fro about parsers in a topic started by someone who doesn't want parsers. It rehashes all the arguments, again and again. What is it that you think this shows me other than numerous pro parser people congratulating each other on 'getting it' and replying to others telling them that they do not 'get it'? No offense, but I'm not reading 21 pages of recycled arguments, I have other things to do.

Lindsay talks w/Naoki Yoshida - Final Fantasy XIV PS4 Beta Event
Yoshida says they officially can't allow the use of (3rd party*) parsers, and talks of the PC gaming culture where parsers and other tools are common. Addressing the use of such tools even though they are technically not allowed, he says "we're all adults, take responsibility for what you do'. So, how does this relate to whether or not there is a fear of harassment felt by some players? His comments do not address that at all.

* - edit, I missed saying 3rd party tools.

WoW: Accessibility and Apathy
I think you're intending this to be a demonstration that there is nothing to fear because everyone has parsers in WoW and look how no one says a thing when that guy trolls the raid for a carry. Apathy is real, of course, because in non-end game content, it pretty much takes more time and effort to whine and complain about the player lagging behind and then kick them, than it does to just plow ahead and clear the dungeon. This comes up pretty regularly in parser related discussions with many people vehemently objecting to (quote understandably) what they call 'forced carries'. Apparently those players are not as apathetic as the players in WoW in the linked video. I don't think that this video really does anything to demonstrate that there are not players who fear harassment.

FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?
Another long topic that rehashes the exact same discussions we have had here. What is it that you are specifically trying to get from this link? I did find one interesting post that I will quote for you here;

But you can already determine if you're doing good dps or not. You can parse all you like and Square won't ban you just for parsing. Nobody has ever gotten banned just for parsing and nothing else.

The OP's argument though isn't about parsing itself, it's about what happens when people take the numbers from their parser and start putting them into chat in an attempt to force other players to improve the way they play. Square doesn't want you doing that specifically. They seem to be of the opinion that if you think someone's not good enough to play with you then instead of trying to force them to be, you should just not play with them.

That's what people clamoring for legal parsing are really all about; they make like they just want to be able to play the game properly, thing is, they already CAN play the game properly, what they actually want is to be able to legally arm-twist other people into playing on same level as they do.

That's why Square will never listen to these people. They already turn a blind eye to parsing itself. They just will never give you a thumbs up to use it against other people. And you don't need to either. Find people who play the way you want and play with them.

I don't see why people can't deal with this...

So, what did I gain from all that reading of the same arguments that have been hashed and rehashed here as well? Nothing. Nothing new was said, it's *exactly* the same points made here over and over and over again. You're saying I ignored some point from this stuff, in all honestly, no I haven't. You simply disagree with my position.

This works both ways, i implore you to actually try to read some of the cited counterarguments to your views rather than repeatedly tossing up the same argument, one that has already been disputed to death already.

All the points in this discussion have been argued to death before. Repeatedly. You know, I haven't ignored any of the points people make in this topic or others. I don't cite them in my posts much, because I take them as read. If that means you think I ignored some argument or other that you think counters or disproves my opinion, that's your opinion, although you'd be wrong to think that.

The single, specific, point I posted (my original post) in this topic about was the fear of harassment that some players feel. I didn't make any statement about other forms of harassment, I didn't say it was felt by a particular percentage of the players, I didn't say whether it was completely rational or not. I simply said that the fear is a real fear felt by some players. You can't deny that.

Saying that this fear has been 'disproven', is objectively a false claim. That's even demonstrated by posts in this topic alone, where players have posted their experience of being harassed. Not only that, but it's strongly argued that there is already harassment of players over their performance (which I agree is true), so there is in fact a reason for people to fear harassment. That's it. If you can't understand and accept that, it's not my problem. If you don't agree that introducing a parser *could* enhance that fear, that's your opinion, I don't share it.