Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

[Freyyy]

Is it me or did they just vanished another post of Exodus on page 13 ? It's the second time I see that. So appearently people can insult him, but if he defends himself, his post gets deleted but the post insulting him remains. That's very nice.

[Reynhart]

Is it me or did they just vanished another post of Exodus on page 13 ?

Indeed, it vanished. Probably has something to do with its defense because even more rude that the attack.
But I agree, the attack was not necessary in the first place...

[Isius]

Is it me or did they just vanished another post of Exodus on page 13 ? It's the second time I see that. So appearently people can insult him, but if he defends himself, his post gets deleted but the post insulting him remains. That's very nice.

I have noticed a few times his post would disappear too. He does get very vocal sometimes, but is also within his right to do so, but he does get a little rude about his responses sometimes. It is kinda dumb the insults against him still remain. Whatever I have nothing against him.

I am still waiting for his 7Pld/1Healer, and 7Drk/1Healer Thordan EX run to see how they go. As I would find it cool, even though I don't think it really does anything to counter the agruement of people saying War is OP. War is just a better designed tank that also thrives very well in the current meta. Either three things need to happen to tanks: 1. Rework Pld to be competitive against the other tanks, aswell as the other tanks to remain competitive with Pld after it's rework. 2.Realign tank dps back, and go back to a more tank mindset mentality during raids. 3. Homogeneous the tanks to the point they are interchangable, no real flavor between tanks.

I am fine with either of the changes, but for No.3, but I think most people on these forums prefer No.1 to only happen.

[Ralvenom]

That delicious DA C&S crit with Bloodbath tho

I know. SO TASTY.

Maybe you should take your time to count the amount of healing abilities warriors get, and compare them to pld and drk, include their cooldown times and how often they can be used.

Then come back to us and tell us that they all have the same chance to maintain their hp at decent levels without needing any healer class assistance.

The thing is, as a WAR main (who keeps getting handed the MT reins in AS), it's pretty obvious that the only self-healing that actually means a crap is a Bloodbath during an AoE rotation. Every other time, it's just, "Oh, yay...got hit for 3k by an autoattack & healed for 1k...". It doesn't even matter, because your healers already got you covered for autoattack damage and predictable abilities like cleaves. What matters is your damage reduction cooldowns; good use of those are what separate the "OK WAR" from the "good WAR".

[Reynhart]

"Oh, yay...got hit for 3k by an autoattack & healed for 1k...".

As a 190 WAR, Second Wind heals me for around 2k, Thrill of Battle for 3.5k and Equilibrium for 4.5k, without Berserk.

[Vogue]

I know. SO TASTY.


The thing is, as a WAR main (who keeps getting handed the MT reins in AS), it's pretty obvious that the only self-healing that actually means a crap is a Bloodbath during an AoE rotation. Every other time, it's just, "Oh, yay...got hit for 3k by an autoattack & healed for 1k...". It doesn't even matter, because your healers already got you covered for autoattack damage and predictable abilities like cleaves. What matters is your damage reduction cooldowns; good use of those are what separate the "OK WAR" from the "good WAR".

Go watch that Ravana EX 8 warrior fight and see how they do it with no healer, even little heals are enough in most situations if it keeps you alive until your bigger heals abilities are off cooldown. No other tank class can successfully keep themselves alive for so long without the need of any "outside" heals.

The issue I see is that warrior get way too many tools to become a monstrosity of a tank (in a good way) when they have enough gear to survive and do great damage, since most of their heals come from damage inflicted, even while healing themselves they are dealing good damage, so there is no drawback in the ability to heal themselves and keep fighting. True this is what "makes" warrior a warrior, but when it ends up in having full warrior parties clearing un-nerfed content without the assistance of a healer or any other class (like the ravana 8 warriors clear), it makes you wonder if that is right at all. Not to say of how they can clear Thordan as fast, and actually faster than balanced parties. You saw they killed Thordan before the middle add showed up and without the use of any single target LB.

So it does feel the balance is a bit off when it comes to warriors, as simple as that.

I also don't like nerfs and rebalancing of classes, but sometimes they are needed, if not, look at bard, it got nerfed after 2.0 came out because it did too much dps and lacked complexity, then it got made more complex in 3.0 but kept its bottom of the dps chart tag, reasons for this, it is a support class? ok well that is what they want it to be, then be it. Warrior is not a dps class, it is a tank, it shouldn't be possible to behave as a dps and get new un-nerfed content cleared like balanced parties would.

[Brian_]

People continue with this utter BS that this 7 WAR party is somehow clearing Thordan EX faster than balanced parties.

Again, multiple A4S clearing players with what is likely BiS gear, 2 weeks behind early progression, and a 1 healer set-up. Like I previously already detailed, they are behind on DPS at every point in the fight compared to a conventional group. In my farm groups from a week ago which were no where near as geared as this one, we were still clearing 15~21% faster than this party with 2 healers. If you decided to go with a non-conventional 1 healer set-up (which is perfectly viable in a 2 tank 5 DPS comp), it would be even faster.

And, as for un-nerfed content, that depends on how you define nerfed. A lot of people would say that over-gearing out-dated content is an effective nerf to content. This is why SE opts to release easier access to higher ilevel gear instead of nerfing content at first. They have the same effective result. At this point, most people over-gear Ravana EX by 30+ ilevels and can kill before Final Liberation. Even Thordan EX is over-geared because it was meant as catch-up content for people who haven't cleared the later floors of Savage yet.

People look at niche content-based examples of where a class's strengths are very apparent and treat it as if it means they are OP. In the rare few solo-heal A3S runs we've seen, PLDs are the best tank and virtually a must-bring job, not WARs and not DRKs. A3S is much more relevant than Thordan EX. Does that mean PLDs are OP? Hell no.

[shao32]

snip

nice post, thats the true, thats the question whe have now, ¿what happen if SE buff paladin dps and drk phs tools to the same level to the warrior? the answer is easy, thordan come up a month more or less and 7 warr 1whm clear the fight with cero issues like a standar party (more importan when yoshi say they dont make future fights in the same dificulty) so what prevent in future contenc ppl go only with tanks and healers? can dealt awesome dps, they need less heals vs regular dps so this make 7 tanks can be very close to 4 dps and 2 tanks.

this break complety the trinity, have 7 tanks in recent conten and have clears with only have a little overgear is.... im pretty sure 7 war can clear as1 and 2 if they want

[Ralvenom]

As a 190 WAR, Second Wind heals me for around 2k, Thrill of Battle for 3.5k and Equilibrium for 4.5k, without Berserk.

Which, in actual raid content, isn't really that much. When autoattacks wack you for 6k regularly, the main use of these skills is to heal back up after using Holmgang on a tank buster. Let's be realistic here.

[Reynhart]

Which, in actual raid content, isn't really that much. When autoattacks wack you for 6k regularly, the main use of these skills is to heal back up after using Holmgang on a tank buster. Let's be realistic here.

That's still a lot more than 1k, and it's even more powerful during Berserk + Internal Release.
And yes, when you use it with Holmgang, it's suddenly not that weak compared to Hallowed Ground, considering the much shorter cooldown.