The new raiding meta is making me want to quit.

[Archaell]

No Alexander Savage clear.

No Thoradan clear.

Who are you to criticize anyone?

No matter the quality, they are still a human being allowed to have opinions. It's not like silly clears make you something more, is it?

[rappa]

All of us have opinions, but not all of them are valid.

I am not a surgeon, but me, trying to lead or defame a surgery? No way.

[Archaell]

All of us have opinions, but not all of them are valid.

And additional row in the achievement list doesn't make them any more valid than they already are. If there is something like validity when it comes to opinions in the first place.

It's not like the poster was trying to teach us how to do the content. They simply stated that the op could dislike this meta due to their laziness. We can agree with that or disagree, but that would be again our opinions.

Bringing out achievements in a way that could be considered "elitist" in its negative meaning is a bad move. It would have been better to say that Titania could have stated her/his opinion in more polite manner.

[Brian_]

You don't get to tell others how to play, at all. I'll tell you why the NA DF and PF scene is floundering, it's because the raiding mentality (aka the current meta) has infected a lot of wannabe raiders and wannabe world first raiders who are not in fact what they want to be. But those players in-turn enforce the end-game meta on players who will NEVER set foot in end-game or raiding - because they don't want to. It makes for a hostile environment. Several of my best in-game friends are long time raiders who've quit the scene because in their opinion, the NA raiding community has become toxic, due to this very issue. The never ending grind of the gear treadmill and raid farming didn't help either.

Rugged/selfish individualism my ass. More like rugged and selfish conformists attempting to make others conform as well. In a sense you're nothing more than a fashion victim falling for the latest fashion (game meta), demanding everyone else become a sheep like you.

Here is a summary of your post: I don't want to listen to the advice I'm given. I don't want to learn. I don't want to improve. I don't wand to "conform." I want to play the way I play and these people who expect more can screw themselves. I'm not going to do Savage so I can be absolutely horrible at my role.

Isn't that exactly what I was saying?

In the meanwhile, your actions are actually having a real impact on your teammates. At the same time you say others can't tell you what do to, you are forcing others to play by your terms. You are saying to them "I'm going to force you to do a 40 minute EX-roulette run." "I'm going to force you to constantly wipe to this content." "I'm going to change your enjoyment of the game because I don't want to change mine."

And it's exactly this selfish entitlement that is toxic and causes stress and tension. Whereas on JP servers, both sides understand what it means to compromise, on NA servers, it devolves into back and forth flaming because what's important is not their common goal, what's important is their own ego and selfishness. It's why more and more non-toxic high-skill players are just abandoning DF and PF on NA servers.

It is not "wannabe raider" to actually expect people to know how to play their role or to be receptive to criticism / open to learning. It is not the "end-game meta" to respect the time of your peers and to come to all content with a modicum of preparation. This has nothing to do with the subjectivity of fashion and everything to do with what has been empirically proven to be the objectively better way to play. It's like calling people sheep for thinking the earth is round.

[Hellboy-sa]

For the Tank LB in the solo heal of Thordan, you guys do know that the ultimate gets stronger with every death, if your party doesn't have a death before the ultimate you should be fine without an LB I imagine, it's hard to have Stone Skin up for it though as his series of blast backs attack will knock it off just before.

deaths has nothing to do with ultimate end strength

its the longer time you spent clearing P2 - P4 does

[Hellboy-sa]

It may sound ironic, but as I posted on the tank forum, the push for tank and healer DPS feels like more responsibility being pushed on those already held most responsible for negative outcomes, and the irony is, this is something that could make me more positive about parser use. Outside of the end-game raids, it seems to me that any time a run depends on healer and tank dps it's because the DPS are not pulling their weight, so why allow this meta to put that burden on tanks and healers?

nobody forcing you to do savage or EX primals

if you dont like that stick with the 95% of the game that it meant to you

leave the hardcores enjoy the 5%

and yes im gonna go full DPS as tank and DPS as healer even in DF

[Alisa180]

Kosmos has a point in that this situation cuts both ways. Not just 'bad' players who refuse to learn their role (of which I've encounteted a grand total of one in my whole time in FFXIV) but also 'elitists' who force things on players that they may not be comfortable with, or skilled enough to handle.

Cleric Stance is an excellent example of this. Yours truly simply *could not* learn to stance dance to save her life. If I'm not required to use CS, I kick ass as WHM (Used to main Holy Prest in WoW, and many of my old skills easily transferred over since it had a playstyle similiar to WHM). Before I gave it up, I was even mastering pre-casting to my pride. I do my job and do it well. Sadly, the immensive pressure to use CS eventually led me to give up healing (which I otherwise loved) to main SMN instead.

Savage is understandable. Its when its expected outside of Savage that it starts becoming a problem.

Part of the problem is that there is no sense of 'gray area' in terms of playstyle. You are either using raid-caliber play, or you suck. And there IS a grey area. Outside of Savage, you can beat DPS checks using less-then-ideal-but-still-good-enough rotations. You can beat those same DPS checks doing this and without healer DPS.

So you have the 'elitists' berating players for not going 'above and beyond' when they might not be ready or simply be unable to. Or simply not being aware of the basics for various reasons, and getting scolded without recieving constructive feedback on how to improve. Hence, these players retreat into themselves, and possibly shut themselves to actual feedback in the future. Why should they care what those 'uppity' elitists think, after all?

On the other side, you have veterans and other genuinely good players getting frusturated, because let's face it this game does not do the best job of teaching. They run into 'bad' players, either genuine or possibly those who'd been burned before like above. Why should they cater to those 'bad' players? Especially if they don't know the simplest things about their role.

Some, like me, have paitience, teach, while recognizing.lost causes (again, of which I've encountered a grand total one). Others refuse to have such paitience, reinforcing the opinions of the players who dismiss improving. And I've found some tend to be a bit condencing when trying to teach someone the 'right' way to play, which doesn't help. Meanwhile, you have the 'bad' player, some genuine, some just the result of bad experiences. They refuse to improve (for some, improving might even be seen as 'giving in' to the 'elitists'), hence making veterns more dismissive of them.

Its just a bad situation and a vicious cycle overall, with both sides perpetuating stereotypes of the others. I don't even know where to begin fixing it, but I think the eventually 'Beginner's Palace' will help. Hopefully. Meanwhile, there are egos and lots of pride going around on both sides, and I don't see a resolution anytime soon.

[Jamein]

Kosmos has a point in that this situation cuts both ways. Not just 'bad' players who refuse to learn their role (of which I've encounteted a grand total of one in my whole time in FFXIV) but also 'elitists' who force things on players that they may not be comfortable with, or skilled enough to handle.

It's not even just bad players who refuse to learn, it's people who simply think they are doing well/ok when they are not. I see plenty of this in game especially with DPS classes who have no parser to measure their performance. They go around thinking everthing is fine clearing content, but 95% of content allows people to under perform by a long shot which is bad in itself, I blame SE for this. I also want to say, outside of a physical/mental disability or genuine amounts of lag, everyone can get better. This isn't rocket science it's a game and not an extremely complex one.

Cleric Stance is an excellent example of this. Yours truly simply *could not* learn to stance dance to save her life. If I'm not required to use CS, I kick ass as WHM (Used to main Holy Prest in WoW, and many of my old skills easily transferred over since it had a playstyle similiar to WHM). Before I gave it up, I was even mastering pre-casting to my pride. I do my job and do it well. Sadly, the immensive pressure to use CS eventually led me to give up healing (which I otherwise loved) to main SMN instead.

Not trying to sound like an ass, but I probably will here and I don't mean to insult, but you are not a kick ass WHM, not by FFXIV standards. Now what I mean by this is DPSing can be a part of a healers role in this game. I am not saying it HAS to be done by any means and for 95% of content it isn't needed. However to be a TOP whitemage in this game you are able to both keep the party alive, AND support with DPS. There is a fair amount of downtime as a healer in a lot of content in this game where you can literally do nothing because the tank isn't taking much damage, so in essence by not stance dancing and DPSing you are only performing about 60-70% of your maximum that your class can do.

I get it, you're playing a healer you want to just heal, and for 95% of content that is absolutely FINE I am not saying you SHOULD be doing DPS in that content, all I am saying is this is the big problem with the community right now, people think they are doing well on their class and are good, but they aren't. Being good at your class means you play it to its potential, as a healer this means doing DPS as and when you can between healing. You might not like DPSing which again is fine, but THAT is the maximum potential that the class has and you do everything you can for the group, same concept with tanks and same with DPS classes who should be going all out rather than doing 500-600 DPS in full ESO. Its all about the group performance and contributing everything your class can to the party you are in, and this is the standard at which a player goes from being average, to good at the class. If they change the game so healers cant DPS and make it harder to heal then that standard will change, but right now that's not how it is.

Savage is understandable. Its when its expected outside of Savage that it starts becoming a problem.

See above, I don't expect anyone to DPS on healers outside of Savage, it's just nice when they do.

Part of the problem is that there is no sense of 'gray area' in terms of playstyle. You are either using raid-caliber play, or you suck. And there IS a grey area. Outside of Savage, you can beat DPS checks using less-then-ideal-but-still-good-enough rotations. You can beat those same DPS checks doing this and without healer DPS.

I addressed this a little above again, it's not mandatory, it's just nice when everyone is doing what they can for a group, rather than doing what they feel is acceptable. I will go into Alex normal, and still aim for max DPS when I go. Not for bragging rights but because I can, because I will play to my classes maximum potential no matter the content. However it's fine if people aren't doing this for the most part, the real problem comes when people are performing BELOW average which I am sorry to say, a LOT are. It's a little disheartening when I am doing 1100-1300 and then the next DPS is doing 700 and he is the warrior while the blackmage is doing 400. It feels like people want a free ride. Sadly this is more common than you can imagine.

So you have the 'elitists' berating players for not going 'above and beyond' when they might not be ready or simply be unable to. Or simply not being aware of the basics for various reasons, and getting scolded without recieving constructive feedback on how to improve. Hence, these players retreat into themselves, and possibly shut themselves to actual feedback in the future. Why should they care what those 'uppity' elitists think, after all?

I've never really seen 'elitists' berating others. I actually see more hate from players who think they are good but really aren't. I remember when FCOB went into DF. Whenever a run would fail the guy screaming at others would generally be the one that messed up/is doing abysmal DPS etc. As for constructive feedback, I've said this a few times I am all for helping people out with encounter tips/tricks class tips/tricks and advanced techniques, but the basics and the rotation basics and the fight basics are all available for everyone to see, the rotation basics are taught to a degree in game, and then if you want more there is google. Players shouldn't have to explain very basic game concepts to others as this is stuff that is fed to you on a plate. If you are unwilling to help yourself then how on earth am I meant to help you?

On the other side, you have veterans and other genuinely good players getting frusturated, because let's face it this game does not do the best job of teaching. They run into 'bad' players, either genuine or possibly those who'd been burned before like above. Why should they cater to those 'bad' players? Especially if they don't know the simplest things about their role.

This mentality, and I will admit I have been driven towards it, comes from people really really not learning the basics but then instead calling for nerfs/echo/changes to everything from SE to cater to them. Its frustrating to see raids like SCOB get obliterated with nerfs because people would rather have that, than actually try to get better. Hell even Demon Wall got nerfed...a dungeon, got nerfed. That's just mind boggling. Don't even get me started on Steps of Faith.

Its just a bad situation and a vicious cycle overall, with both sides perpetuating stereotypes of the others. I don't even know where to begin fixing it, but I think the eventually 'Beginner's Palace' will help. Hopefully. Meanwhile, there are egos and lots of pride going around on both sides, and I don't see a resolution anytime soon.

I'll agree somewhat both sides are at fault, but sadly the solutions to the problem are also blocked by just one side. The end game raiders literally scream out for things and are telling you how they got better, what tools they used to get better and they are getting a resounding NO from the rest of the community because people are afraid.

Parsers are the biggest example of this, a parser is a FANTASTIC tool to measure DPS (and analyse fights). Hands down it improved mine and put me at the top end because I always aimed to get better after seeing what I was really doing. It's a minigame for me, can I beat my previous best and can I beat the high scores. As I said earlier, a lot of people THINK they are doing fine when they are not, because they simple don't know. I've argued for parsers and their benefits for hours on end, but sadly all you get in response is 'BUT WHAT IF PEOPLE ARE MEAN'.

The difficulty curve is another one, 95% of content can be cleared by underperforming, so when people are actually faced with content that requires more, they fail miserably and get frustrated. SE needs to stop nerfing things and start forcing players to get a little better. Again not asking for 1000+ DPS here, but forcing people to learn class basics to clear dungeons would go a hell of a long way. It would be a nightmare short term but long term, people would improve.

[LunnaRavenheart]

I don't get it why people want to do solo heal in a fight, where so much can happen. Especially in the phases after the spear, most mistakes will lead to a wipe if no second heal is available.

If the damage is that bad with 4 DPS players, they should begin to train for it or do content that match their skill level. The DPS checks in this fight are ways easier than faust in A1S.

Its not because of dps checks its because there is nothing to do for second healer if nobody is dead or mechanics are done in right order. Also its more challenging and maybe 30 second faster.

[Yukiko]

Just a random thought: Why will you aim to be TOP in your role? I mean, we are playing a game to have FUN, dont we?
There is no highscore, so why forcing savage to be one? If you like to compare your Skills maybe you should consider to play a FPS and not a RPG genre!