The new raiding meta is making me want to quit.

[Alisa180]

Kosmos has a point in that this situation cuts both ways. Not just 'bad' players who refuse to learn their role (of which I've encounteted a grand total of one in my whole time in FFXIV) but also 'elitists' who force things on players that they may not be comfortable with, or skilled enough to handle.

Cleric Stance is an excellent example of this. Yours truly simply *could not* learn to stance dance to save her life. If I'm not required to use CS, I kick ass as WHM (Used to main Holy Prest in WoW, and many of my old skills easily transferred over since it had a playstyle similiar to WHM). Before I gave it up, I was even mastering pre-casting to my pride. I do my job and do it well. Sadly, the immensive pressure to use CS eventually led me to give up healing (which I otherwise loved) to main SMN instead.

Savage is understandable. Its when its expected outside of Savage that it starts becoming a problem.

Part of the problem is that there is no sense of 'gray area' in terms of playstyle. You are either using raid-caliber play, or you suck. And there IS a grey area. Outside of Savage, you can beat DPS checks using less-then-ideal-but-still-good-enough rotations. You can beat those same DPS checks doing this and without healer DPS.

So you have the 'elitists' berating players for not going 'above and beyond' when they might not be ready or simply be unable to. Or simply not being aware of the basics for various reasons, and getting scolded without recieving constructive feedback on how to improve. Hence, these players retreat into themselves, and possibly shut themselves to actual feedback in the future. Why should they care what those 'uppity' elitists think, after all?

On the other side, you have veterans and other genuinely good players getting frusturated, because let's face it this game does not do the best job of teaching. They run into 'bad' players, either genuine or possibly those who'd been burned before like above. Why should they cater to those 'bad' players? Especially if they don't know the simplest things about their role.

Some, like me, have paitience, teach, while recognizing.lost causes (again, of which I've encountered a grand total one). Others refuse to have such paitience, reinforcing the opinions of the players who dismiss improving. And I've found some tend to be a bit condencing when trying to teach someone the 'right' way to play, which doesn't help. Meanwhile, you have the 'bad' player, some genuine, some just the result of bad experiences. They refuse to improve (for some, improving might even be seen as 'giving in' to the 'elitists'), hence making veterns more dismissive of them.

Its just a bad situation and a vicious cycle overall, with both sides perpetuating stereotypes of the others. I don't even know where to begin fixing it, but I think the eventually 'Beginner's Palace' will help. Hopefully. Meanwhile, there are egos and lots of pride going around on both sides, and I don't see a resolution anytime soon.

[Jamein]

Kosmos has a point in that this situation cuts both ways. Not just 'bad' players who refuse to learn their role (of which I've encounteted a grand total of one in my whole time in FFXIV) but also 'elitists' who force things on players that they may not be comfortable with, or skilled enough to handle.

It's not even just bad players who refuse to learn, it's people who simply think they are doing well/ok when they are not. I see plenty of this in game especially with DPS classes who have no parser to measure their performance. They go around thinking everthing is fine clearing content, but 95% of content allows people to under perform by a long shot which is bad in itself, I blame SE for this. I also want to say, outside of a physical/mental disability or genuine amounts of lag, everyone can get better. This isn't rocket science it's a game and not an extremely complex one.

Cleric Stance is an excellent example of this. Yours truly simply *could not* learn to stance dance to save her life. If I'm not required to use CS, I kick ass as WHM (Used to main Holy Prest in WoW, and many of my old skills easily transferred over since it had a playstyle similiar to WHM). Before I gave it up, I was even mastering pre-casting to my pride. I do my job and do it well. Sadly, the immensive pressure to use CS eventually led me to give up healing (which I otherwise loved) to main SMN instead.

Not trying to sound like an ass, but I probably will here and I don't mean to insult, but you are not a kick ass WHM, not by FFXIV standards. Now what I mean by this is DPSing can be a part of a healers role in this game. I am not saying it HAS to be done by any means and for 95% of content it isn't needed. However to be a TOP whitemage in this game you are able to both keep the party alive, AND support with DPS. There is a fair amount of downtime as a healer in a lot of content in this game where you can literally do nothing because the tank isn't taking much damage, so in essence by not stance dancing and DPSing you are only performing about 60-70% of your maximum that your class can do.

I get it, you're playing a healer you want to just heal, and for 95% of content that is absolutely FINE I am not saying you SHOULD be doing DPS in that content, all I am saying is this is the big problem with the community right now, people think they are doing well on their class and are good, but they aren't. Being good at your class means you play it to its potential, as a healer this means doing DPS as and when you can between healing. You might not like DPSing which again is fine, but THAT is the maximum potential that the class has and you do everything you can for the group, same concept with tanks and same with DPS classes who should be going all out rather than doing 500-600 DPS in full ESO. Its all about the group performance and contributing everything your class can to the party you are in, and this is the standard at which a player goes from being average, to good at the class. If they change the game so healers cant DPS and make it harder to heal then that standard will change, but right now that's not how it is.

Savage is understandable. Its when its expected outside of Savage that it starts becoming a problem.

See above, I don't expect anyone to DPS on healers outside of Savage, it's just nice when they do.

Part of the problem is that there is no sense of 'gray area' in terms of playstyle. You are either using raid-caliber play, or you suck. And there IS a grey area. Outside of Savage, you can beat DPS checks using less-then-ideal-but-still-good-enough rotations. You can beat those same DPS checks doing this and without healer DPS.

I addressed this a little above again, it's not mandatory, it's just nice when everyone is doing what they can for a group, rather than doing what they feel is acceptable. I will go into Alex normal, and still aim for max DPS when I go. Not for bragging rights but because I can, because I will play to my classes maximum potential no matter the content. However it's fine if people aren't doing this for the most part, the real problem comes when people are performing BELOW average which I am sorry to say, a LOT are. It's a little disheartening when I am doing 1100-1300 and then the next DPS is doing 700 and he is the warrior while the blackmage is doing 400. It feels like people want a free ride. Sadly this is more common than you can imagine.

So you have the 'elitists' berating players for not going 'above and beyond' when they might not be ready or simply be unable to. Or simply not being aware of the basics for various reasons, and getting scolded without recieving constructive feedback on how to improve. Hence, these players retreat into themselves, and possibly shut themselves to actual feedback in the future. Why should they care what those 'uppity' elitists think, after all?

I've never really seen 'elitists' berating others. I actually see more hate from players who think they are good but really aren't. I remember when FCOB went into DF. Whenever a run would fail the guy screaming at others would generally be the one that messed up/is doing abysmal DPS etc. As for constructive feedback, I've said this a few times I am all for helping people out with encounter tips/tricks class tips/tricks and advanced techniques, but the basics and the rotation basics and the fight basics are all available for everyone to see, the rotation basics are taught to a degree in game, and then if you want more there is google. Players shouldn't have to explain very basic game concepts to others as this is stuff that is fed to you on a plate. If you are unwilling to help yourself then how on earth am I meant to help you?

On the other side, you have veterans and other genuinely good players getting frusturated, because let's face it this game does not do the best job of teaching. They run into 'bad' players, either genuine or possibly those who'd been burned before like above. Why should they cater to those 'bad' players? Especially if they don't know the simplest things about their role.

This mentality, and I will admit I have been driven towards it, comes from people really really not learning the basics but then instead calling for nerfs/echo/changes to everything from SE to cater to them. Its frustrating to see raids like SCOB get obliterated with nerfs because people would rather have that, than actually try to get better. Hell even Demon Wall got nerfed...a dungeon, got nerfed. That's just mind boggling. Don't even get me started on Steps of Faith.

Its just a bad situation and a vicious cycle overall, with both sides perpetuating stereotypes of the others. I don't even know where to begin fixing it, but I think the eventually 'Beginner's Palace' will help. Hopefully. Meanwhile, there are egos and lots of pride going around on both sides, and I don't see a resolution anytime soon.

I'll agree somewhat both sides are at fault, but sadly the solutions to the problem are also blocked by just one side. The end game raiders literally scream out for things and are telling you how they got better, what tools they used to get better and they are getting a resounding NO from the rest of the community because people are afraid.

Parsers are the biggest example of this, a parser is a FANTASTIC tool to measure DPS (and analyse fights). Hands down it improved mine and put me at the top end because I always aimed to get better after seeing what I was really doing. It's a minigame for me, can I beat my previous best and can I beat the high scores. As I said earlier, a lot of people THINK they are doing fine when they are not, because they simple don't know. I've argued for parsers and their benefits for hours on end, but sadly all you get in response is 'BUT WHAT IF PEOPLE ARE MEAN'.

The difficulty curve is another one, 95% of content can be cleared by underperforming, so when people are actually faced with content that requires more, they fail miserably and get frustrated. SE needs to stop nerfing things and start forcing players to get a little better. Again not asking for 1000+ DPS here, but forcing people to learn class basics to clear dungeons would go a hell of a long way. It would be a nightmare short term but long term, people would improve.

[Miscreant]

Cleric Stance is an excellent example of this. Yours truly simply *could not* learn to stance dance to save her life. If I'm not required to use CS, I kick ass as WHM.

I don't get it, how can you be a kick ass Whm if you can't read the fights well enough to know when there is downtime, kick ass Whm's know the rotation of the fight they are doing. There is always downtime and openings, CS doesn't have to be a 6 hit rotation either, it can literally be DoT or two, you don't even necessarily have to be in Cleric either e.g. using Stone 1 on an Add to slow it's movement down, Fluid Aura to knock an add in place. No one outside of your static should expect you to be dpsing in your downtime as it's really not needed outside of A3-4 progression. Personally I love dpsing as a healer, keeping my GCD moving throughout an encounter helps me keep track of the timing of my own abilities.

I don't get it why people want to do solo heal in a fight, where so much can happen. Especially in the phases after the spear, most mistakes will lead to a wipe if no second heal is available.

If the damage is that bad with 4 DPS players, they should begin to train for it or do content that match their skill level. The DPS checks in this fight are ways easier than faust in A1S.

Because it's fun, It's a challenge, it's not something I would do for sales but it's something I enjoy to try with friends.

It's the same as speed running games etc, no real point to it outside of personal enjoyment.

Just a random thought: Why will you aim to be TOP in your role? I mean, we are playing a game to have FUN, dont we?
There is no highscore, so why forcing savage to be one? If you like to compare your Skills maybe you should consider to play a FPS and not a RPG genre!

If you spend so much time practising and doing something you get enjoyment from progressing at it, people want to be the best they can be at the things they love and enjoy, I think most of us are well aware that we aren't going to be world first players, but that doesn't mean we don't get satisfaction from a perfect run or beating an old parse etc.

[Alisa180]

*snip*

A very long story short, nearly every time I try going into CS, it ends in disaster. I do identify downtime, and I *tried*, I really tried but...I just couldn't pull it off and wipes ensured. On multiple occasions. Over the course of several weeks attempted practice.

When I say I kick ass as WHM, I mean I'm the healer keeping the crappy group alive because I'm too nice for my own good. I don't overheal, know not to Regen before the pull, know how to manage my manage my mana and what heals to use in what situations. I don't spam Medica 2 (unlike some), I keep Shroud of Saints on CD during intense periods/fights, and have adopted the habit of popping Divine Seal at the start of large pulls in EX Roulette. As I said, I was mastering pre-casting, healing damage just as it happened, an important skill for an endgame WHM.

When it comes to healing, I do nearly everything right. I've played nothing *but* a healer since my WoW days (SMN is the first DPS class I've played to the point of maining it), and FFXIV is similiar enough on that count that the instincts I developed serve me very well, such as knowing triage.

But the second CS comes into the picture, everything just falls to pieces. :\

[Archaell]

...

I am sorry to say it, but you kick ass as Sylphie and not WHM then, which is really hard to understand.

If you are able to precast skills, you should also be able to tell when you have enough time to dps and prepare for it accordingly. We are talking about healer's dps being not required, but if you want to be a kick ass WHM, the ability to use cleric stance without falling apart is an important skill and if you can't hadle it, then chances are that your spot would get relegated to a worse "Sylphie" than you, but someone who can manage to throw at least few Aeros here and there.

[HorseBoots]

The problem with the current raiding meta in terms of healing and tank DPS isn't the fact that healer and good tank DPS is nice to have and used as proof of mastery over the role and class.

The problem is the fact that this DPS expectation is not a bonus to the raid's overall DPS output and effectiveness, it's currently a requirement if you want to clear the content to begin with. While extra gear does help, it was not enough to help close the power gap.

This is a blunder due to the fact that Alexander Savage is poopybutt.

In Coil, fights were tuned based almost solely on DPS from DPS classes. Some minor tank DPS was thrown in and literally 0 DPS was expected by healers by design at the optimal gear level expected from the developers. This was further confirmed in interviews before 3.0 release. Pushing above expectations for tank and healer DPS was designed as "bonus" damage. This was the most common way for top-tier groups to clear content well below the expected gear level.

The raiding community as we know it is going to live or die by how they handle the next block for Alexander in 3.2. I can only hope they have the foresight not to make the same mistakes again.

[rappa]

In Coil, fights were tuned based almost solely on DPS from DPS classes. Some minor tank DPS was thrown in and literally 0 DPS was expected by healers by design at the optimal gear level expected from the developers. This was further confirmed in interviews before 3.0 release. Pushing above expectations for tank and healer DPS was designed as "bonus" damage. This was the most common way for top-tier groups to clear content well below the expected gear level.

Yo were unable to kill avatar and Nael without Tanks and healers doing dps during the first weeks. Or remove one tank in that fight to add one dps more.

Healers are doing dps since Wanderer's Palace is up.

[Alisa180]

We are talking about healer's dps being not required, but if you want to be a kick ass WHM, the ability to use cleric stance without falling apart is an important skill and if you can't hadle it, then chances are that your spot would get relegated to a worse "Sylphie" than you, but someone who can manage to throw at least few Aeros here and there.

And this, IMHO, is the entire problem with the current healing meta in a nutshell.

[Frowny]

Inclined to agree. If I'm playing WHM, I wanna heal. If I wanted to do DPS, I'd break my DRG out. I'm cool with healers tossing some DPS here and there, but it isn't/shouldn't be their core focus. We have DPS classes for a reason.