The new raiding meta is making me want to quit.

[ZanzhizExaverion]

I dont think the problem is the meta.. But the fact that Yoshida and his testers say they don't include healer DPS, and then make the checks wildly high as if you have 0 downtime for DPS at a reasonably geared level. This is assuming the Main tank at the time is always in Tank Stance.

It's a little ludicrous in A3, just because there's so much moving, but otherwise it's okay.

[Kosmos992k]

Why does every player who clearly doesn't raid use this quote?

Oh, I don't know, because it's, you know..., the truth? Truth is truth whether I personally raid or not.

If your in i210 then sure maybe you can loose the healer dps, but anyone whos been into the later floors of Savage knows that healer+tank dps is needed.

Tell you what, why don't you just accept that encounters are balance without healer damage since the game creators have said so? No one is arguing against the idea that in Alex Savage, tank and healer damage can help teams meet the dps checks - even though the encounters are balance without healer dps. What is being discussed is how that meta has impacted all other parts of the game, including a huge number if players who will never raid.

I dont think the problem is the meta.. But the fact that Yoshida and his testers say they don't include healer DPS, and then make the checks wildly high as if you have 0 downtime for DPS at a reasonably geared level. This is assuming the Main tank at the time is always in Tank Stance.

It's a little ludicrous in A3, just because there's so much moving, but otherwise it's okay.

I guess thatwould depend on the target ilvl for which they balance. If your group is at or below that ilvl, you'll have to have pretty well perfect rotations and healer/tank assistance. If your group is at or above that ilvl, then the healer and tank dps is only needed toplug any gap between actual dps output and intended dps output.

Either way, the problem is very much the meta being forced down the throats of players outside the raiding community.

Rather than blaming Yoshi-P and the developers, why not simply accept the content is hard and that short of gearing, you have to depend on tanks and healers to fill the gearing gap for you?

[Miscreant]

Oh, I don't know, because it's, you know..., the truth? Truth is truth whether I personally raid or not.



Tell you what, why don't you just accept that encounters are balance without healer damage since the game creators have said so? No one is arguing against the idea that in Alex Savage, tank and healer damage can help teams meet the dps checks - even though the encounters are balance without healer dps. What is being discussed is how that meta has impacted all other parts of the game, including a huge number if players who will never raid.

How are you getting on with your 3.1 Relic Quest? You know Yoshi-P said it would be in the patch last summer so it must be true... Not everything SE tells us is true, you have never been into the fights or seen the amount of dps that is required. All you have is a sentence that a dev said before the fight was ever released to go by, a little further down the line Yoshi-P said they think they over-tuned Savages difficulty, so where does that leave the no healer dps required theory now?

[Kosmos992k]

How are you getting on with your 3.1 Relic Quest? You know Yoshi-P said it would be in the patch last summer so it must be true...

You're comparing an estimated timeline that has since been revised, with a statement about how they balance and test encounters. Apples and oranges. Try harder.

[Miscreant]

You're comparing an estimated timeline that has since been revised, with a statement about how they balance and test encounters. Apples and oranges. Try harder.

You have never been into the fights or seen the amount of dps that is required all you have is a sentence that a dev said before the fight was ever released to go by, a little further down the line Yoshi-P said they think they over-tuned Savages difficulty, so where does that leave the no healer dps required theory now?

Please see last message

[zosia]

Actually as several people have posted (including quotes from Yoshi-P), the raids are balance around the DPS and tank damage, healer damage is not taken into account. I believe that the tank damage considered in a soloboss fight is what you'd get from 1 tank in DPS stance and 1 in tank stance. if people challenge the content while undergeared, which the leading edge players will, then tank and healer damage becomes more important to help fill the gearing gap.



That's a steaming pile of BS IMHO. You don't get to tell others how to play, at all. I'll tell you why the NA DF and PF scene is floundering, it's because the raiding mentality (aka the current meta) has infected a lot of wannabe raiders and wannabe world first raiders who are not in fact what they want to be. But those players in-turn enforce the end-game meta on players who will NEVER set foot in end-game or raiding - because they don't want to. It makes for a hostile environment. Several of my best in-game friends are long time raiders who've quit the scene because in their opinion, the NA raiding community has become toxic, due to this very issue. The never ending grind of the gear treadmill and raid farming didn't help either.

Rugged/selfish individualism my ass. More like rugged and selfish conformists attempting to make others conform as well. In a sense you're nothing more than a fashion victim falling for the latest fashion (game meta), demanding everyone else become a sheep like you.

You are so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

Even in full ilvl 209, You NEED healer dps in a4s. That fight was tuned WITH healer dps being a requirement. You obviously have had absolutely no a4s experience since you gobble up that BS that there are no fights in this game that require healers to dps.

Yes, one of the reasons pf/df are failing is the terrible attitudes and unwillingness to play at a high level of the community. The DF/PF is not their for people to get carried. If people want to play their own special inefficient way, then they can play with their friends privately and gtfo of df/pf. The JP community pf/df works so much better because they respect other players by bringing their A game to any pug or df fight. The opposite is true here in the NA community. People show up in PF/DF expecting to be taught and/or carried.

You're comparing an estimated timeline that has since been revised, with a statement about how they balance and test encounters. Apples and oranges. Try harder.

By virtue of revision, it shows that things were not tuned properly. Try again.

[Ladon]

The DF/PF is not their for people to get carried. If people want to play their own special inefficient way, then they can play with their friends privately and gtfo of df/pf. The JP community pf/df works so much better because they respect other players by bringing their A game to any pug or df fight. The opposite is true here in the NA community. People show up in PF/DF expecting to be taught and/or carried.

All of my likes.

This is also the perspective the devs are designing content and DF rules on too.

There is fundamental difference in the Japanese DF and it is mostly because they come in well prepared and ready to learn unlike the NA PF which is just full of self entitled children that think they know everything and can't take an ounce of criticism.

[Archaell]

Let me ask a noob question: Is it really impossible to clear savage without healers' dps? Has any group actually tried it recently? I know that it is stupid to do something the hard way, when there is the easier option, but I would be really interested if it's really impossible.

[Kosmos992k]

Even in full ilvl 209, You NEED healer dps in a4s.

You might, but I don't since I'm not running it. However, be that as it may, your argument is essentially that the game producer an team are lying about how they balance things. That's your privillage of course, but until you can show where they about face on the issue, at least have the good grace to acknowledge what they said.

Yes, one of the reasons pf/df are failing is the terrible attitudes and unwillingness to play at a high level of the community. The DF/PF is not their for people to get carried. If people want to play their own special inefficient way

...then they can stop whining, walk the walk, make a premade group of their own and stop expecting players in duty finder to conform to *their* expectations.

The JP community pf/df works so much better because they respect other players

Stop imposing your expectation on others and respect them, if you're going to respect others, this is where you need to start.

here in the NA community. People show up in PF/DF expecting to be taught and/or carried.

That's your asumption, and imho a pretty good example of one of the reasons DF is seen as a hortible thing in NA servers. DF as a resource was created to help players without a static or premade find a group, there is no expectation of gearing - beyond the requirement to enter - skill or experience, if you think otherwise then you are ignoring thepurpose of duty finder.

By virtue of revision, it shows that things were not tuned properly.

ROTFLMAO! So a revision of a timeline is somehow an indicator that Yoshi-P was untruthful about how content is balanced? Good lord, thats some twisted logic you have there.

a little further down the line Yoshi-P said they think they over-tuned Savages difficulty, so where does that leave the no healer dps required theory now?

It leaves the no healer dps theory perfectly fine where it is. The fact that he's said they overtuned the fight doesn't indicate that healer dps was included, it indicates that the tolerance for error, and the degree of optimal performance required of tanks and DPS was tightened to much. Including healer damage is rebalancing, not overtuning.

Either way, this discussion is more about the fact that people from the raiding community, and others with abitions to be part of that community are forcing the MOAR DPS meta on all other players, and dismissing any who do not like it. The discussion isn't about Alex Savage which undoubtedly can benefit from any additional damage that healers or tanks can add to the fight - even if the content is balanced to require very high efficiency f5om DPS and Tanks, and doesn't include healer damage.

No one is questioning that, but the trouble is that on the one hand there are people who wish to extend that point of view from Alex Savage to all other content, even though it's not part of how the game is balanced. On the other hand you have players who are not here for world firsts, end-game or raiding,and are enjoying the game as it is.

None of us, neither you, nor I, has the right to tell others how to play, or how to gear. It's not a matter of 'I play how I like', it's a matter of having enough respect for others that you don't impose your expectatikns on them. That includes not expecting raid worthy performance, gear and knowledge of players in Duty Finder. That cuts both ways, it's equally disrespectful of players to use DF to expect that other pkayers should be happy to carry them.

But, that isn't what this discussion is about, this is about the idea that healers and tanks are supposed to supplement the damage done by the DPS, and making it essentially mandatory that the healers and tanks carry not only the load they already have, but also the load of whether or not the DPS check is met. So prebiously a healer or tank would be blamed for a wipe because of perceived poor healing orpoor tanking, now they get blamed if the DPS check is missed? Sounds more like DPS pkayers want this meta outside end-game so they can avoid blame and scapegoat healers and tanks.

[zosia]

You might, but I don't since I'm not running it. However, be that as it may, your argument is essentially that the game producer an team are lying about how they balance things.That's your privillage of course, but until you can show where they about face on the issue, at least have the good grace to acknowledge what they said.

That's factual evidence. I am not sure what other proof you need. "fights are not balanced around healer dps" yet we have a4s which needs healer dps for your 1st clear before your team has access to 210 weapons.

...then they can stop whining, walk the walk, make a premade group of their own and stop expecting players in duty finder to conform to *their* expectations.

Thats what we are doing. None of my team, our sister raid static, or the 3rd raiding static in my FC really play with pugs. Why should we? We can just compose a group of skilled players from our fc and leave the pf/df to devolve into the hunger games. Why do you think pf/df is failing? We, the players who actually want to try, stopped caring enough to join random groups.

Stop imposing your expectation on others and respect them, if you're going to respect others, this is where you need to start.

I don't impose anything on anyone, I am simply stating facts. Where did I say people should healer dps? If anything, I said if people want to play their own special way, they should bail out of mainstream gameplay. It's a simple and reasonable statement with ZERO disrespect implied. If you can't handle the fact that if you want to play sub-optimally you should play with like minded people, then I don't know what else to tell you.

That's your asumption, and imho a pretty good example of one of the reasons DF is seen as a hortible thing in NA servers. DF as a resource was created to help players without a static or premade find a group, there is no expectation of gearing - beyond the requirement to enter - skill or experience, if you think otherwise then you are ignoring thepurpose of duty finder.

It's pretty widely known how the JP communities carry themselves in pug groups. So, no, not an assumption on my part, try again. Also, I don't run with pugs, so I am not the one making df terrible. But if you're going to make assumptions, please, continue to make them based off of me, a person you know nothing about.

I don't expect players to show up in DF with the best gear or with all the fights experienced. What do I expect? That they know how to play their class and how to dodge and aoe. Sadly, those expectations are too high and people like you defend atrocious gameplay. Rather than teach a man to fish, you rather them wonder blissfully ignorant to their terrible gameplay. It's very frustrating when a 15 min dungeon run turns into a 45 min ordeal over an ice mage.

ROTFLMAO! So a revision of a timeline is somehow an indicator that Yoshi-P was untruthful about how content is balanced? Good lord, thats some twisted logic you have there.

Yes. Again, you obviously don't play in savage. What Yoshi-P said looks to be an absolute lie when you examine a4s. They revised the timeline why? Because people can't clear this content, even with full ilvl208 (before the thordan weapons).

How exactly did their testers beat the fight? My guess is with healer dps -______________-

There you go. There is your lie. Unless SE staffs game testers better than the world 1st group (and from SCOB savage, we know they don't), the test team would have used healer dps to down a4s.