Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Rawrz]

As for the cross class skills PLD isn't the only one with useless x-cross, it's just how the game is built but the most useless skills isn't from CNJ, oh no it's from MRD...skull sunder....

Hello Might I introduce you to Ruin? What do you say: WHM/BLM? Tempting offer isn't it. Throw it on your back hotbar for when you REALLY need it. I'll be watching for it. You're welcome.

[Loony_BoB]

First off, let's just completely ignore the "but WoW" arguments. I don't like WoW either, but I don't play it and I don't care if they have something or don't have something.

I don't really care for a healing stance. However, I do agree that PLD is, by design, supposed to have a touch of white magic to it. There is precedent throughout the Final Fantasy series and almost every other game out there.

PLD should have a stronger Cure than it does. PLD should have the ability to raise in battle if they are going to continue to allow it to use Raise as a cross-class skill. The fact should remain that this would make PLD a bit more useful without forcing every tank to be a quasi-DPS. Essentially, since PLD takes cross-class from WAR and WHM, both of these jobs should provide some cross-class skills actually useful in a party situation, instead of "Oh, using Cure is actually just a waste of your time, all the other things you could do are better" or anything like that.

PLD should absolutely have a stronger Cure that makes it worth casting in certain situations. And provided PLD has raise, it should be able to raise in battle. It should also be noted that there are very few situations where PLD is the ideal person to raise - as they are almost always main tank, they will get interrupted constantly, the raise will end up going to the most dangerous position (ie, in the red zone), etc. So they won't become a healer-stealer, they will simply have the option to actually do things that in my opinion they should have been able to do from the start.

[Rawrz]

And provided PLD has raise, it should be able to raise in battle. It should also be noted that there are very few situations where PLD is the ideal person to raise - as they are almost always main tank, they will get interrupted constantly, the raise will end up going to the most dangerous position (ie, in the red zone), etc. So they won't become a healer-stealer, they will simply have the option to actually do things that in my opinion they should have been able to do from the start.

The reason Paladins cant have raise is because they can out-survive almost anything (All tanks can, but Hallowed makes it look easy.) Lets set the stage for a game breaker:

Super Hard hitting Aoe is coming, example Ravana EX Bloody Fuller. DPS messed up with 5 Butterflies. (OUCH)
Everyone is dead but the PLD and the other PLD.
Casts Tempered Will. Raise Healer. Knockback does nothing. Healer Gets up. Laughing Rose (White AOE): A PLD Covers/Hallows or Suicides to get rid of Vulnerability stacks as the Healer LB3's. Everyone gets back up, MP restored and all Debuffs removed and move on to Prey....


Its sort of a more Band-aid Extreme Cheese liek how Hallow and Living Dead make Double Prey a tank mechanic instead of a party mechanic. Mess up and PLD's can fix it. Could something better be in place? Yeah I think so, but WHM already give very nice Cross class skills with little in return. You can't really ask for more.


Personnally I really took a liking to changing Clemency a little.

Cure Potency: 300 potency HoT
Duration: 12 seconds
Cast time 1 second
20% less MP cost than it is now.

Additional effect: While in Shield Oath, Increased Emnity.
Additional effect: While in Sword Oath, MP cost is reduced by 50%.


But this is all coming from a Healer's PoV. You won't get bigger DPS numbers but its a plus to AOE aggro, increased surviveabilty and longer DPSing windows for healers. (Think Healers casting Regen/Medica II prepull and not gaining aggro)

[Reynhart]

PLD is in the tank role. If you want to let pally fill the healer role, do you have any plans of submitting a post arguing that WHMs should be able to tank?

I see you haven't changed...why do you still oppose tank and healers...
Still strange that you have absolutely no issue with healers being able to do some DPS. Do you have any plans submitting a post to remove Cleric Stance, since healers aren't supposed to fill the DPS role ?

Because PLD can survive things all other rezzers can't.

And PLD supposedly take far more hits and is far more proned to die that SMNs...

And there is 'some'. PLD, first and foremost, is a tank don't forget, and needs to remain a tank for the sake of balance.

Again, WHM, AST and SCH are healers, yet they can do some pretty high DPS, especially SCH on multiple targets. And WAR can do insane DPS...for a tank. And, I'm pretty sure Kosmos is not asking PLD to still be able to do high DPS while healing, since, you know, he suggested a DPS loss...

Why exactly would you want to make PLD essentially a hybrid job? In essence, what this does is turn FFXIV PLD into Holy Paladins from WoW.

Do you really have that little knowledge of Final Fantasy to suggest that WoW is where the healing PLD emerged ?

In these threads, we see most people fine with WAR design.
WAR can tank extremely well, can DPS, at least, fairly well compared to other DPS, and can heal himself not bad.
So, why is it overpowered if a PLD could tank tank extremely well, heal fairly well compared to other healers, and DPS not bad ?

The reason Paladins cant have raise is because they can out-survive almost anything (All tanks can, but Hallowed makes it look easy.) Lets set the stage for a game breaker:

Super Hard hitting Aoe is coming, example Ravana EX Bloody Fuller. DPS messed up with 5 Butterflies. (OUCH)
Everyone is dead but the PLD and the other PLD.
Casts Iron Tempest. Raise Healer. Knockback does nothing. Healer Gets up. Laughing Rose (White AOE): A PLD Covers/Hallows or Suicides to get rid of Vulnerability stacks as the Healer LB3's. Everyone gets back up, MP restored and all Debuffs removed and move on to Prey....

That is a nice description...yet I still don't see what is the problem ? You can't take this situation, where everybody messed up royally, as a template for why would PLD be "game breaking", especially when 99,99% of those Ravana (or others) fights, won't go that way. It's not like party will decide to use that kind of strat...

[Cheraa]

Personnally I really took a liking to changing Clemency a little.

Cure Potency: 300 potency HoT
Duration: 12 seconds
Cast time 1 second
20% less MP cost than it is now.

Additional effect: While in Shield Oath, Increased Emnity.
Additional effect: While in Sword Oath, MP cost is reduced by 50%.

That would be so awesome, even though I would raise the Potency to 600 and the duration to 18 seconds. That would be a 200 Heal per second on us.
Nice, but not OP if you compare the 200 HP/s to our 16.000-18.000 HP Pool.

it would also make AOE Tanking a little bit more appealing, as I don't have to spam Flash, with Clemency generating aggro over time.

[Soge01]

.....

I agree with everything you said about Paladin. I'm a Paladin and I hate how Warrior and Dark Knight can completely outclass it. Having a redone Sword Oath and adding a Healing Stance would make Paladin the ultimate tank and I'd love to play that class more often with these fixes and additions! I salute you, Kosmos and your fantastic ideas for Paladin! ^U^

[Brannigan]

That would be so awesome, even though I would raise the Potency to 600 and the duration to 18 seconds. That would be a 200 Heal per second on us.
Nice, but not OP if you compare the 200 HP/s to our 16.000-18.000 HP Pool.

Potency is not the amount healed. Potency is a value listed on tooltips to give you an idea of how hard something will hit relative to another skill. For example, with the same stats, a Spirits Within (300 potency) will deal twice as much damage as a Fast Blade (150 potency), whether it's 300/150 damage or 5000/2500 damage. Three Sword Oath bonus attacks are worth one Shield Swipe or Fast Blade, etc. Current Clemency is a 1200 potency heal, but restores far more than 1200 HP and the amount will go up or down depending on your Strength, determination, and weapon damage.

Take however much you Clemency for right now and cut it in half. That's how much HP a 600 potency HoT would restore to you every 3 seconds.

[Rawrz]

Personnally I really took a liking to changing Clemency a little.

Cure Potency: 300 potency HoT
Duration: 12 seconds
Cast time 1 second
20% less MP cost than it is now.

Additional effect: While in Shield Oath, Increased Emnity.
Additional effect: While in Sword Oath, MP cost is reduced by 50%.

That would be so awesome, even though I would raise the Potency to 600 and the duration to 18 seconds. That would be a 200 Heal per second on us.
Nice, but not OP if you compare the 200 HP/s to our 16.000-18.000 HP Pool.

it would also make AOE Tanking a little bit more appealing, as I don't have to spam Flash, with Clemency generating aggro over time.

Right now Clemency heals for 4600. Reducing it to 300 potency would cause it to heal 1150 every tick (Every 3 seconds.) Making it a heal over time is somewhat of a nerf, but by reducing its MP cost and cast time it is buffed. The stance dependent additional effects give PLDs even more utility.

[Cheraa]

Okay my fault. I was expecting the Potency would display the overall HoT time and not to every tick. (I know that potency is not the dealt amount of DMG and Heal.)

[Twailaith]

As a DRK, I would very much like the option of my tank-bro being able to off-heal if one of the WHM/AST/SCLs go down. Leaves the other healer with time to actually rez instead of slowly getting withered down by mana management and/or failing to outheal a dps-heavy boss.

As a BLM, the idea of an OT that can heal and rez us fragile glass cannons fills my heart with wonder and joy.