Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Kosmos992k]

OK, so I've read many topics about the Paladin including Jspec07's longish (and well written) essay "What makes a Paladin". A lot of people talk about the Paladin's identity, what kind of tank is it, how does it compare to the others. I was thinking about this on my drive to work this morning, and over lunch I put my thoughts into words...

I came up with some questions and some suggestions that answer the questions.

TL;DR at the end.

First, our identity is based on our use of a shield, no other job uses a shield, SE has clearly elected to remove shields from WHM/BLM, leaving the shield our unique, special property. Coming into Heavensward the effectiveness of our shield was slashed, with no compensating increase in some other aspect of our performance. Warrior, for example, took no such hit to their performance So the question here is, why make the shield core to our identity and then greatly diminish it's value?

Next up, Sword Oath. This is meant to be our DPS booster, and the 50 potency increase to Auto Attacks is a nice boost. It carries no penalty for use, making me wonder why it's not our base stance, but instead needs to be switched into. So the question here is what is the point of having Sword Oath at all?

And last we come to our Cross Skills. We cross with CNJ.WHM, so you might conclude we would be something of a battle field medic. You'd be wrong though. A Paladin's cures are very weak compared to any healer, even Eos can do better. And, unlike Summoner (DPS) we cannot raise people in battle, so why even include Raise in your cross skills? Then there's StoneSkin and Protect, every healer has them, reducing our use of Protect to solo play, StoneSkin remains useful, but it is situational. So the question is, why give us cross class skills with CNJ only to hobble them?

So The Questions are;

• Why make the shield core to our identity and then greatly diminish it's value?
• What is the point of having Sword Oath at all?
• Why give us cross class skills with CNJ only to hobble them?

:Edit:

The changes to Shield Swipe help a bit with respect to the value of the shield, but I think that more needs to be done.

Having read some recent posts, and considered my own experience playing recently, I find myself agreeing that the changes to shield swipe have on balance actually resulted in PLD who previously used the skill very effectively now having some reduction in DPS, reduced enmity and even increased TP use based on the reduction in potency and the 15s re-use limitation, which just serves to make the shield even less effective.... Since the effectiveness of our shield was reduced so much, a compensating factor could be to make them effective against magic as well.

Without a change to Sword Oath, I see no point to it at all. Either make it a trait, and give us Shield Oath at the same time, or revamp Sword Oath. I'm thinking in terms of making Sword Oath an actual stance that we switch to, not simply the default stance that we have to remember to switch on.

So, I suggest making the increase in auto attack potency a trait, not a skill or stance. Disable it in Shield Oath, leave it enabled in Sword Oath and modify Sword Oath as follows;

• increase damage dealt by 10%,
• increase Skill Speed by 10%,
• decrease rate of enmity gain by 5%
• decrease block rate and block strength by 10% each

This would reflect the focus on Sword in Sword Oath, resulting in less defense and less enmity gain (as a balancing factor), but increased damage.
Edit : this stacks the old Sword oath and new together, which would be OP, so drop the current effect of Sword Oath, and change it to a smaller potency boost to all our attack skills - I haven't 'done the math' for this so I can't suggest a particular number. However the increase in DPS needs to be noticeable, but not in any way rival the output of a Warrior in their DPS stance.

Finally our cross class skills I think provide the opportunity for a greater change to the job. Introduce a new stance. The Oath of Solace. A paladin in this stance switches attention to the healing arts. While in this stance;

• Can raise in battle
• Interruption of spells (Cure, Raise, Protect, StoneSkin, and Clemency) is 50% less likely
• Cure strength is based on the average of the Paladin's MND and VIT Edit: or simply a mild boost to the Potency of cure
• Enmity gain from over healing is doubled.
• AutoAttack potency is reduced to 50% of base
• decreased block rate and block strength (10% each).
• Edit: Both MP and HP used (equal to the current MP useage) when Casting Cure as a balancing factor to prevent PLD sitting in this stance as a second healer in a party

As it does now, stance switching burns a cool down, the Paladin would effectively have 4 stances, Neutral, Attack, Defend and Healing.

My thought with 4 stances is that the Paladin can be a jack of all trades, plugging whatever gap is needed in addition to the times when they play MT. It would make them a very useful OT since in the OT Role, they can freely switch from attack to healing if the healers are in trouble, or one falls. If the MT falls the PLD can switch to their Defensive stance and provoke the Boss to grab aggro. Finally the modification of Sword Oath gives it enhanced value, but also a penalty for use giving it a defined purpose and leaving the Paladin the option of not using it, to retain their full defensive capabilities.

I'm thinking that this would be done by giving the basic Sword and Shield Oaths at level 30, and then at level 40, apply a trait to boost auto attack potency by 50, and add the Oath of Solace (Healer stance). This would also address the very frequent complaint that Paladins have to wait until level 40 to get their tanking stance.

One other thing I have wondered about is making the type of shield matter, since shields are important to our identity. Bucklers are so much lighter than other shields, we should be able to move faster with them. Scutum's are so bulky we ought to move more slowly with them. I'd like to see a Skill Speed modifier on the shields based on the type of shield. Bucker is +5%, Scutums are -5% and all others are neutral(+0%).

The TL;DR version;
The shield is core to Paladin identity. Changes to blocking diminish that. Sword Oath is pointless. The CNJ cross class abilities are lacking.
Three questions;

• Why make the shield core to our identity and then greatly diminish it's value?
• What is the point of having Sword Oath at all?
• Why give us cross class skills with CNJ only to hobble them?

Current Sword Oath effect should be a trait. Create new Sword Oath to increase dps and decrease defense. Shields can block magic. No change to Shield oath. Add new Oath of Solace - healing stance. Healing stance allows Raise during battle, increases strength of Cure, decreases DPS and defense. PLD would have 4 stance options, no stance, attack (Sword Oath), defense (Shield Oath) and healing (Oath of Solace). Size of shield has small effect on Skill Speed.

Make a virtue of the fact that the Paladin is really a master of no 'trade' by making them a jack of all trades based on their stances.

[zakalw3]

Some kind of stance switching would be wonderful. A Three tier: dps/defend/heal. Flitting between them as required. Would make the class much more interesting, maybe give it some kind of rhythm aside from 1-2-3, repeat...

[Ralvenom]

Finally our cross class skills I think provide the opportunity for a greater change to the job. Introduce a new stance. The Oath of Solace. A paladin in this stance switches attention to the healing arts. While in this stance;

• Can raise in battle
• Interruption of spells (Cure, Raise, Protect, StoneSkin, and Clemency) is 50% less likely
• Cure strength is based on the average of the Paladin's MND and VIT
• Enmity gain from over healing is doubled.
• AutoAttack potency is reduced to 50% of base
• decreased block rate and block strength (10% each).

Why exactly would you want to make PLD essentially a hybrid job? In essence, what this does is turn FFXIV PLD into Holy Paladins from WoW. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Paladi...ations.2Fstats

I have no idea why you would want this?!

Edit: Oh, and I'm willing to bet that switching into your new "Oath of Solace" would basically make PLD a limp noodle. Bad healing. Bad dps. Bad tanking. Why would you EVER do it?!

[Brannigan]

WoW paladins are just clerics who like to play at being knights. Please do not make XIV paladins more like them.

[Kosmos992k]

Why exactly would you want to make PLD essentially a hybrid job? In essence, what this does is turn FFXIV PLD into Holy Paladins from WoW.

I have no idea why you would want this?!

Edit: Oh, and I'm willing to bet that switching into your new "Oath of Solace" would basically make PLD a limp noodle. Bad healing. Bad dps. Bad tanking. Why would you EVER do it?!

Hmmm....so let's see, the suggested attack stance actually boosts PLD DPS, so it's an improvement over today, so either our DPS is pointlessly bad already and improving it makes no difference or you didn't read the post.

The suggested defense stance is the same as Shield Oath as it is, plus the suggested expansion of shield blocking to magic attacks, which is actually tankier than the current situation. So I'm not sure why you think it would be worse than the current situation, unless you simply didn't read the post.

The suggested healing stance penalizes dps far more than defense, only reducing blocking rate and strength by 10%, so it's hardly a 'wet noodle'. As for being bad healing, if the strength of the cure being cast by a Paladin were based off the average of MND and VIT, it would be considerably stronger than it is right now, Clemency would remain unchanged except less likely to be interrupted, and PLD would be capable of raising in battle, so while not a complete healer, it's one hell of a lot better than it is right now.

As for why would you ever do it, there are multiple times when I have been off tanking and a healer fell, if I could have switched to a healing stance I could have raised the healer and used Clemency and the stringer Cure to keep people up while the healer recovers themself. As it is I stand there knowing I have raise, but being unable to use it. Of course there is always variety in play, which is never a bad thing.

Adding a healing stance gives the Paladin something extra to do, and uses their existing CNJ cross class skills which otherwise are nothing less than a waste of time. Paladins are based on Gladiator and Conjurer for a reason, I see no issue with making those healing skills viable.

However, since a) you're a warrior, and b) I remember your not so positive words about Paladin in previous posts and c) apparently you didn't actually read my post, forgive me if I don't put much stock in what you're complaining about.

WoW paladins are just clerics who like to play at being knights. Please do not make XIV paladins more like them.

Then why give us CNJ cross class skills that are utterly pointless? If you retain the current cross skills and Gladiator/Conjurer base for Paladin, then this is a natural extension of the job. Otherwise, there is no reason to use CNJ, in which case give us cross skills from a DPS class and let us start putting our decent damage. Personally, I'd rather we go the route I suggested since we already have a DPS tank, called Warrior.

[winsock]

PLDs get clemency which, in terms of raw healing is fairly high, I don't think a healing stance is necessary.

PLD should absolutely not have a combat rez. Its raw tank and in some cases HG, can break things.

Not sure why all the "make PLD a better healer" suggestions keep popping up.
WAR/DRK are still going to be preferred unless you make the PLD heal so well you can drop a healer to take another dps... That doesn't fix anything it just shifts the problem to another class.

[Kosmos992k]

PLDs get clemency which, in terms of raw healing is fairly high, I don't think a healing stance is necessary.

One skill doesn't make a role.

PLD should absolutely not have a combat rez. Its raw tank and in some cases HG, can break things.

How would PLD having the ability to raise in battle break anything? - SMN can do it why not PLD? Either way, what is the point in having the cross skill if there is literally no time when you would use it. Since you have to be out of battle to raise, then you can always switch to CNJ/WHM and raise that way, so the skill being on PLD is pointless if it can't be used in battle.

Not sure why all the "make PLD a better healer" suggestions keep popping up.
WAR/DRK are still going to be preferred unless you make the PLD heal so well you can drop a healer to take another dps... That doesn't fix anything it just shifts the problem to another class.

Well, it's just a wild guess, but I'd say it was because half our cross skills come from CNJ, and we were just given two new skills that fall under healing/support. So it seems that there is some synergy there between PLD and healing.

[winsock]

One skill doesn't make a role.

PLD is in the tank role. If you want to let pally fill the healer role, do you have any plans of submitting a post arguing that WHMs should be able to tank?

How would PLD having the ability to raise in battle break anything?

Because PLD can survive things all other rezzers can't.

So it seems that there is some synergy there between PLD and healing.

And there is 'some'. PLD, first and foremost, is a tank don't forget, and needs to remain a tank for the sake of balance. You're asking for a class that could fill a tank and healer role while DPSing. How is what you're asking for remotely balanced? I mean, your description is basically "buff all the things".

Im curious as to where you draw the line. What, in your opinion, would be the smallest buff or buff(s) you could give PLD, to make it overpowered? And why?

[Kosmos992k]

PLD is in the tank role. If you want to let pally fill the healer role, do you have any plans of submitting a post arguing that WHMs should be able to tank?

Give them their shields back. Something I have argued for consistently. Also, you must have a pretty low view of White Mage if you think that the stop gap healing abilities I outlined, come close to being a real healer. The idea is not to make the Paladin a viable healer, but to give them enough healing ability to survive a fallen healer, or any situation where the healer(s) need help. Really, you need to actually read and consider what I wrote because it in no way gives Paladin the healing ability of a White Mage.

Because PLD can survive things all other rezzers can't.

*That* makes it overpowered? Really? How? Explain the point of cross classing Raise if it can't be used in any meaningful manner.

And there is 'some'. PLD, first and foremost, is a tank don't forget, and needs to remain a tank for the sake of balance. You're asking for a class that could fill a tank and healer role while DPSing. How is what you're asking for remotely balanced? I mean, your description is basically "buff all the things".

The proposed Sword oath includes 2 debuffs to blocking and reduced enmity. The suggested Shield Oath is unchanged from the current situation and the healing stance nerfs the crap out of the Auto Attack along with including the 2 debuffs to blocking. How is that buff everything?

I

m curious as to where you draw the line. What, in your opinion, would be the smallest buff or buff(s) you could give PLD, to make it overpowered? And why?

I already indicated the buffs I think would work, and why. It's just a pity that you somehow ignored the balancing factors in the suggested stances, and see the modest buffs and modest 'stop gap' healing stance as overpowered.

I'm really not seeing being able to raise in battle as OP, there is literally no reason to give us the skill without being able to use it in battle. Summoner, Scholar and white mage can all do it, is giving Summoner access to battle raise over powered? No, not in the least,and all of those classes can swift cast. A battle raise with a 6s casting time is hardly overpowered, but it is at least useful enough to merit being a cross class skill. I'm struggling to understand why you oppose the kinds of modifications I suggested, they are relatively mild and more than anything else they give purpose to cross classing CNJ for Paladin. As it stands, Raise is a pointless waste of space, as is cure. Protect is already being cast by at least two other players as is stoneskin.

How am I asking for a tank that can DPS while healing? The stance described debuffs the base auto attack, so your auto attack would be extremely low in the suggested stance, not only that but there are defensive debuffs also,. Honestly if you are going to oppose an idea, at least make sure you are being accurate.

[Martin_Arcainess]

A lot to talk about but the 1st thing I want to address is what do you mean PLD's shield is gone? We still have our shield it's just that the amount we blocked by has been reduce yes but the reason for that it's allows room for improvement and growth.

As for that Tank stance, I'm happy with the Shield and Sword Oath. I know Sword Oath doesn't offer much of a DPS increase but at least it is a increase suitable for PLD. PLD is based on being more about defense then Offence which is why I prefer to use PLD to tank King Thordan EX then my DRK. He's other skills help the party out more then my DRK would.

As for the cross class skills PLD isn't the only one with useless x-cross, it's just how the game is built but the most useless skills isn't from CNJ, oh no it's from MRD...skull sunder....