What Makes a Paladin? An Essay on Paladin Identity

[Shurrikhan]

No, I'm saying that Shield and Sword Oath are bland because they doesn't change anything besides their basic effect. Back in 2.x, it was even worse. Since both Oath are "fire and forget" skills, the gameplay difference between Gladiator and Paladin was minimal. When compared to MRD and WAR, you could clearly see what the OP called the "lack of Identity".
Again, I'm not talking about stronger or weaker skills.


Sorry, but no. Maim and Eye will fall if you don't reapply them, Blood of the Dragon will fall if you don't manage it properly. Darkside is a stance, and it will never fall by itself.
And it's absolutely offensive.


Maybe it's because what we do have is either what the other tank have or so situational that you could probably forgot you have them. Pray tell me how I can get the most out of Awareness...or Protect...or Cure...or Raise...

Strongly agree. Somewhat agree. Somewhat agree.

1. While I agree that the stances and job identity as a whole on PLD is often a bit lackluster (the oGCDs are noticable, but Cover rarely has any good use at this point, Hallowed Ground is par for the course), but even while PLD pays slightly more than DRK and typically quite a bit more than WAR for a short stance-dance, it's not like its outright discouraged by the math behind the job, nor is it without its own idiosyncrasy/ies. It's what it causes you to do and think about, not the complexity in the one ability itself.

2. Mana drain, so technically, leave it alone in combat and yes, it will fall off by itself. A long BotD with lesser, more frequent gains is probably the best analogy you're going to get for it.

3. Awareness I use regularly and Protect (often have more free time to do that as OT than the healers) enough to remember its binding w/o looking. Cure... not since Stone Vigil. Raise... only in Diadem if we leave combat and some corpse has gotten separated from its party.

To OP: Don't worry, virtually none of the jobs make sense. There's been little to no effort put into doing so. Only a few of the Heavensward job quest lines were even decent. Lore is largely an after-thought, with very few attempts to connect job themes with their mechanics. Sadly, you may be asking too much of this game if you'd like that to change for the better. It's probably a lost cause to ask for a consolidated lore-based direction by which to get identity. If anything, I'd look at particular times you felt like you were doing something unique as a PLD (maybe the first WP speedruns, Omega wep Ex, TW vs. divebombs, etc.) and what felt good or cool about those, then what the situations that you knew you were a PLD by that feeling of being shot in the foot it gave you and consider what caused it. Look then at the skills they have now, how they could be modified to grant / deal with each. You're not going to find your answer in unique yet well-established lore or any encapsulating theme here. I mean... how long now have we been complaining that Bards aren't Bards, our DRGs aren't really DRGs, and our Pugilists+an_AoE+oGCD+a_new_Fist weren't Monks...

[Khalithar]

Very good post OP, I really enjoyed reading it. Your story analysis of it is pretty spot on, I'm glad it resolved the story about the Oathkeeper and I appreciate how the Elezen kid became our squire in a way, how you helped him gear up and prepare for the battle against the monetarists. The battle against the souls as well was interesting, in a way though it made me think of the pld achivement mount though, it's a lion. Among prides of lions there really is only ever the one alpha male, in the case of the pld souls I feel as though that's the theme it was going for, we had to prove we are the alpha pld, peerless in dedication to our duty and oath with martial strength to back it up. Hence why our ultimate attack is called Royal Authority, against, that's what *I* got from the whole story.

As for how pld feels compared to other games, it's definitely a lot different. Mostly because in other games a pld is a warrior wielding holy power to smite their enemies and pld in this game has a distinctive lack of wielding holy power for our attacks. There is no calling upon the holy light to smite our foes, no beseeching whatever god of justice and goodness is there to strengthen us, etc. I've made a thread about that before but no one ever replied to it, that pld should get some kind of attack that follows along those lines, preferably one using our MP as in most fights I have little to no reason to use any of my MP at all. Not that I think pld should get an MP management mode, rather I'd like to use it for an offensive purpose at some point. The class definitely feels like a defender, but I think the next set of pld storyline should be us being the good guy just straight fighting some evil stuff and defending the weak and helpless, possibly with a darker twist by showing us someone that is clearly corrupt but being the good guy that we are, we can't just outright smack him down with our sword and it requires us finding a way to defeat them by working within the laws/rules rather than breaking them. As for our toolkit, it "feels" like a defender to me, but I don't get the "knightly" thing. Granted, it's because we come from being a gladiator to being this person that is supposed to be a beacon of hope and justice for the downtrodden, then not really getting the chance to do that.

This is my own thoughts on what our story should have been. 35-50 should have been about returning oathkeeper. But 50-60, there is a HUGE missed opportunity, the Knights of Ishgard have shown themselves to be a bunch of arrogant jerks with no regard for the lower classes, they only care about preserving their power and killing their dragons, they leave the poor to starve and freeze to death while they live sheltered in warm in the upper levels. That could have been the perfect time to have the pld, a virtuous knight that's supposed to fight for those downtrodden people, show up and help out those lower classes and teach some of the more arrogant knights what it means to really be a defender of the people. Quests where we assist refugees and peasants survive and show the knights of ishgard how to really be a merciful and honorable knight.

[Reynhart]

I really don't get how things are so hard to understand for some people. The flavor of Defiance, Deliverance, Grit have nothing to do with Defiance, Deliverance, and Grit. Grit and Shield Oath are almost literally exactly the same. Their flavor comes from the surrounding tool-kit.

I'm pretty sure the "Building Wrath for parry boost" has everything to do with Defiance. As for granting acces to skills, you're just playing on words since lots of skills and effect are directly tied to Darkside, Grit, Defiance and Deliverance.

They are not fire and forget.

They're exactly what a Fire and Forget skill is. Before they were changed to stay active after death, you could litteraly forget it wore off as long as the fight go well.

And seriously? Blood of the Dragon will fall off if you don't manage it properly but Darkside is a stance because it will never fall off by itself... unless you don't manage it properly. Darkside will fall off if you mess up your MP management just like Maim or Eye will fall off if you mess up your GCD rotation. It's not a stance. It is an activated buff that fits into the MP management DRKs deal with.

No, Dark Arts fits into MP management. Unless the only thing you do is spam the Power Slash combo and never use Syphon Strike...though by that time you have much more issue with your DRK than managing MP

How do you get the most out of Awareness? You pop it together with Bulwark to push crits off the hit table so that you can maximize your chances of blocking an attack. The same logic applies to Sheltron.

You pop it to push off what you might think would have been Critical Hits. Most of the time, you can't really say if Awareness really negated some Critical Hits.
The only time where I've seen an automatic crit was in T11, and since it was an AoE, the party would mitigates it otherwise anyway. It's totally different from Sheltron who WILL block the next attack and gives you back some MP...and it sits on a much shorter cooldown so you can use it several times to have a meaningful impact.

I don't know why you are cross classing Protect, Cure, and Raise, though. If you think those skills are part of maximizing PLD play, well, I don't need to say much.

So, it really doesn't bother you that almost every CNJ cross-class skill is totally useless ?

2. Mana drain, so technically, leave it alone in combat and yes, it will fall off by itself.

The MP cost is so low that, unless you never use Syphon Strike, it won't fall off. Again, Dark Arts is where the MP management comes from.
And remember that out of combat, you could litteraly AFK while flashing red all over Idyllshire. I'd like to see another "buff, not stance" that can do the same.

[Khalithar]

I don't know why you are cross classing Protect, Cure, and Raise, though.

Only 3 of the marauder cross class abilities are worth considering, mercy stroke, bloodbath, and foresight. I'd only even label foresight as a "must have" ability, the other two are kind of lackluster at best, you could probably heal more with Cure than Bloodbath anyway. You could cross class Foresight, Stoneskin, Protect, Cure, and Raise and notice very little difference in performance. It's nowhere near like a Mnk that didn't get Blood for Blood or a Blm without Raging Strikes.

[Freyyy]

Sorry, but no. Maim and Eye will fall if you don't reapply them, Blood of the Dragon will fall if you don't manage it properly. Darkside is a stance, it changes the gameplay of DRK (Again, something that no oath does, wether you have one activated or not) and it will never fall by itself.

A stance cannot be activated alongside another stance, it's the basic thing of "stances". You have to choose which one you use (try to stand in two different stances at the same time in real life, it's impossible). MNK fists are stances, NIN poisons are stances. A DPS stance for DRK would be something that cancels out Grit, costs the same MP, is on the GCD and doesn't conflict with Darkside either. DRK doesn't have anything like that. Darkside is a Maim equivalent, that's all. Saying that Darkside is a stance is like saying that Aetherflow is a stance. Aetherflow also changes the gameplay of SCH/SMN, and will also never fall by itself (as long as you don't USE the stacks).
And DRK doesn't need a DPS stance because of what Blood Weapon brings to DRKs kit when used. More speed, a little less TP consumption, and mostly a lot more MP which means a lot more Dark Arts. Which means a lot more DPS.

Edit : I'll also add that Maim never falls off when you do your rotation properly either, just like Darkside. The argument of "Unless you never use Syphon Strike, it won't fall off" is moot because, unless you never use Maim, it won't fall off either. And guess what ? Maim and Syphon Strike are both at the same place in the rotation. Second tier of non-enmity combos. It's just that for WAR, your enmity combo is also your most damaging combo, so you're most of the time alternating between a BB combo and a SE combo, where DRK will use as little Power Slash as possible. But it's to compensate the fact that Syphon isn't only here to compensate Darkside's cost, but also Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, and all that stuff -alongisde BP and BW-.

[Reynhart]

A stance cannot be activated alongside another stance, it's the basic thing of "stances". You have to choose which one you use (try to stand in two different stances at the same time in real life, it's impossible).

As soon as I'll manage to gather dark energy around my body, I'll keep you posted on what I can do "in real life".
Oh, and by the way, "in real life", Sword and Shield are used together. You don't neglect one to use the other.

Edit for your edit :

Edit : I'll also add that Maim never falls off when you do your rotation properly either, just like Darkside.

So, I suppose any target jumping of becoming untargettable for several seconds is not doing your rotation properly...but, hey, whatever, I'll change the wording of the skill so you can't play on words anymore.

All and all, it doesn't change the fact that every tank_skill_that_stays_on_without_any_duration_displayed offers something else when used in conjunction with other skills, except SwOath and ShOath.

[Bravely_Default]

Funny thing about the ninja's "stances" is that they are OGCD. they have a 5 second cooldown but it is easy to swap them without messing up your rotations. Not the same for paladins however which is kind of funny since I would imagine sword and shield oaths would be a matter of favoring offense or favoring defense while a ninja can just swap the poisons on his weapon mid combat like it is cool.

[Freyyy]

Oh, and by the way, "in real life", Sword and Shield are used together. You don't neglect one to use the other.

Lol where did you see a Paladin use only his shield or his sword depending on the oath ? I don't understand your point here. In real life, the oaths would just translate in either you stand with your sword in front of you, for a more "fencing-oriented" stance, or with your shield in front of you, anticipating enemy attacks and preparing to block.

[Brannigan]

Kind of off topic but I wish people would stop making excuses for Awareness. It's a bad ability and a waste of a trait slot. It exists to give the other tanks a reason to cross class gladiator other than provoke.

[Freyyy]

As soon as I'll manage to gather dark energy around my body, I'll keep you posted on what I can do "in real life".

That was not my point at all. I was just explaining what we're calling "stances" in a video game and why we call them "stances". A stance in real life is basically the way you stand. You cannot stand in two different positions at the same time. And if one day, in real life, you're able to gather dark energy around your body, it would not be a stance at all either. It would just be some kind of magic you activate. Your point is completely inaccurate here.