Paladin: The Tank Mountain

[winsock]

I don't think An instant or shorter cast time on Clemency would step too far into the main healing territory if it had limitations on it i.e Divine Viel Could have an "Additional Effect: Swift Cast" attached to it which would lock instant clemency behind a 2min cooldown.

While I think we disagree, I do respect that you recognize that a change like this would make clemency step on healer's toes. I agree that it would add flavor to PLD, but dont like that it does so at the expense of healers.

A 2min cd sounds like quite the penalty on paper, but consider: benediction is 5mins, tetra is 1min, and PLD is a tank. I might compare it to giving healers a provoke ability that directs that lets them perform tank swaps for the tanks. If this tankswap ability had an 80 second cooldown, it would still step to far IMO, because the mechanic is a tanking responsibility, just as managing saves is a healer responsibility.

I think one thing we can agree on, is that SE gave roles quite a bit of consideration when designing skills like clemency and divine veil, as clemency's cast time is long enough to allow the healer to take responsibility and divine veil is triggered by the healers.

To be honest, a warrior with equilibrium is basically taking the insta heal role without breaking the game.

No. A target heal and a self heal are two different things. Everyone has some responsibility for their own hp bar and this is especially true for tanks. If you'd like to make clemency a insta-cast skill, but it can only be used on the PLD casting it, I'd be fine with that from a "role" perspective.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Stuffs and things

I think this might be the first rational argument I've ever read/had on forums ever LOL.

[Seku]

No. A target heal and a self heal are two different things. Everyone has some responsibility for their own hp bar and this is especially true for tanks. If you'd like to make clemency a insta-cast skill, but it can only be used on the PLD casting it, I'd be fine with that from a "role" perspective.

Nah. Should stay as it is and be instant anyway. If WAR's can push out good DPS, nothing wrong with PLD getting two cures every now and again as OT and consistently as MT. The only thing that sould be looked at maybe is the fact that they are cured themselves a bit when they cure someone else with said spell

[winsock]

snip

Your logic doesnt make sense. You're saying: "WARs tank + dps; therefore, paladins should insta-heal and dps."

PLD currently "gets 2 cures every now and again." Im fine with that as well, just not as an instant heal. Here's the difference:
If a war pushes high dps, how does the war step on the toes of the DPS role? It doesnt.

The DPS role is mainly to keep high "damage per second" i.e. to maintain a rate. If a WAR maintains high DPS, it doesnt limit a dps player's ability to maintain high dps.

With instant heals, if PLD uses an insta-cast clemency as a save, it means the healer doesnt get to perform the save. In other words, the PLD would step on the healer's toes.

Not to mention, it would give a tanking class what would arguably be the best insta-heal in the game.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Not to mention, it would give a tanking class what would arguably be the best insta-heal in the game.

Let's not get crazy. Tetragrama-whatever is a high potency AoE heal on a fairly short CD. In terms of raw potency, that takes the title of "best insta-heal"

[Brannigan]

Let's not get crazy. Tetragrama-whatever is a high potency AoE heal on a fairly short CD. In terms of raw potency, that takes the title of "best insta-heal"

Tetragrammaton is not AOE. You're thinking of Assize, which isn't that high potency (still good though)

[Zeyn]

snip

I understand and respect your argument, but I disagree on your vision of healers.

A healer's job is to keep people healed. They counter the dmg the boss puts out, and they keep people alive. They counter damage from mechanics and heal after a big hit. If someone screws up, they save their life or raise them.

But none of that, in my mind, is an emergency heal. An emergency heal is when something goes wrong, and you need a heal RIGHT NOW or the raid wipes. It can be as easy as a healer having to move instead of heal the tank, or as bad as one healer going down and someone is about to die during the raise. If PLD's heal was fast, it would help the healer not take their job.

Tanks and healers work together. Tanks use cooldowns and healers ready heals for expected damage. You shouldn't expect the tank to do both, and that would be bad design. I see no reason to limit one class's abilities so that they literally can't help.

[Seku]

Your logic doesnt make sense. You're saying: "WARs tank + dps; therefore, paladins should insta-heal and dps."

PLD currently "gets 2 cures every now and again." Im fine with that as well, just not as an instant heal. Here's the difference:
If a war pushes high dps, how does the war step on the toes of the DPS role? It doesnt.

The DPS role is mainly to keep high "damage per second" i.e. to maintain a rate. If a WAR maintains high DPS, it doesnt limit a dps player's ability to maintain high dps.

With instant heals, if PLD uses an insta-cast clemency as a save, it means the healer doesnt get to perform the save. In other words, the PLD would step on the healer's toes.

Not to mention, it would give a tanking class what would arguably be the best insta-heal in the game.

Never said anything about PLD's dps.

War's fellcleave is among the highest potency Weapon skills in the game.

No healer is going to care about a PLD curing itself after a tank buster or a DPS that messed up and will actually probably thank them since it would ease up the difficulty on them. It would also push PLD in the direction that people think it's at, and that is freeing up the healer's to DPS.

[Februs]

If a war pushes high dps, how does the war step on the toes of the DPS role? It doesnt. With instant heals, if PLD uses an insta-cast clemency as a save, it means the healer doesnt get to perform the save. In other words, the PLD would step on the healer's toes.

So, I'm not terribly keen on giving Clemency an insta-heal either... but this doesn't follow.

If we're talking about pure healing capability, than the fact that Pld's even have clemency steps on the healers toes (since they can self-heal or heal other teammates), so, by your logic, Pld's shouldn't even have that move... and War's should not have inner beast or equilibrium (which effectively allow them to self heal sufficiently without healers at all in many circumstances). This is especially considering that Clemency can save a Pld, even without insta-cast.

There's nothing to stop a Pld from beginning the cast during the cast bar of a tank buster and timing it in such a way that the heal goes off immediately after the hit (I do this all the time). It's true that sometimes the cast gets interrupted, but you'd be amazed how many tank busts don't actually interrupt cast bars. It's actually the auto attack. So, if the timing is right, Pld's can already save themselves from high dmging tank busters. This would just provide for a larger margin of error.

Now, if we're talking about "saving the day" (which really sounds like an ego thing, but w/e), than it still doesn't follow. Again, Pld's can already save the day (for themselves or one other unlucky target) if they know how to time their clemency correctly... or even a well used stoneskin.

It used to be super popular for Pld's to apply SS before big cleaves in order to buff themselves against tank busters. Why was this important? Because Tank busters are traditionally followed or preceded by big AoE dmging moves. The Pld's ability to be self sufficient for the immediate seconds before or after the tank bust allows the healer to "save the day" for the rest of the raid, especially because Dps are known to panic and stand in stupid. The healer's job doesn't just end at the tank. If I self heal a tank bust, the healer shouldn't be moping around, lamenting that they didn't get to shine for a minute, they should be looking after the rest of the group and applying buffs.

The Warrior comparison doesn't make sense either. I have seen and been in fights where the Warrior's outgoing Dmg was the only reason the group made the dps check. How do I know? Because two of the Dps were dead and we still made it. The Warrior was working a PvP burst dmg rotation (you can look it up in the PvP forums if you want the exact rotation. It's pretty impressive, and has an obscenely high output), and that's more than enough to make a difference.

So, the question is, why is the high dmg output of a Warrior, something which has been proven to be an effective means of meeting DPS checks (which are supposed to be the responsibility of the dps... kinda in the name) and is now considered the Meta for clearing high end raids (at least until gear levels get higher) somehow not considered stepping on the Dps's toes, but a Pld self healing through a tank buster (something that a Warrior can already do with the right cooldowns), is somehow considered stepping on the toes of the healer?

[Kabooa]

but a Pld self healing through a tank buster (something that a Warrior can already do with the right cooldowns), is somehow considered stepping on the toes of the healer?

Because the interface sucks and it's hard to know who's healing what. You can't 'overdamage' something in a negative fashion. If it dies, it's dead, and that's great.

If either the healer or the paladin takes the time to heal the same target, then someone wasted their time, -and that can lead to someone else dying for it.- The 'incoming' lines are sluggish compared to other 'incoming' systems in other games, so you're far more likely to slam on the healing to someone who already had one coming.

I really miss GRID from Warcraft.