Paladin: The Tank Mountain

[Februs]

If a war pushes high dps, how does the war step on the toes of the DPS role? It doesnt. With instant heals, if PLD uses an insta-cast clemency as a save, it means the healer doesnt get to perform the save. In other words, the PLD would step on the healer's toes.

So, I'm not terribly keen on giving Clemency an insta-heal either... but this doesn't follow.

If we're talking about pure healing capability, than the fact that Pld's even have clemency steps on the healers toes (since they can self-heal or heal other teammates), so, by your logic, Pld's shouldn't even have that move... and War's should not have inner beast or equilibrium (which effectively allow them to self heal sufficiently without healers at all in many circumstances). This is especially considering that Clemency can save a Pld, even without insta-cast.

There's nothing to stop a Pld from beginning the cast during the cast bar of a tank buster and timing it in such a way that the heal goes off immediately after the hit (I do this all the time). It's true that sometimes the cast gets interrupted, but you'd be amazed how many tank busts don't actually interrupt cast bars. It's actually the auto attack. So, if the timing is right, Pld's can already save themselves from high dmging tank busters. This would just provide for a larger margin of error.

Now, if we're talking about "saving the day" (which really sounds like an ego thing, but w/e), than it still doesn't follow. Again, Pld's can already save the day (for themselves or one other unlucky target) if they know how to time their clemency correctly... or even a well used stoneskin.

It used to be super popular for Pld's to apply SS before big cleaves in order to buff themselves against tank busters. Why was this important? Because Tank busters are traditionally followed or preceded by big AoE dmging moves. The Pld's ability to be self sufficient for the immediate seconds before or after the tank bust allows the healer to "save the day" for the rest of the raid, especially because Dps are known to panic and stand in stupid. The healer's job doesn't just end at the tank. If I self heal a tank bust, the healer shouldn't be moping around, lamenting that they didn't get to shine for a minute, they should be looking after the rest of the group and applying buffs.

The Warrior comparison doesn't make sense either. I have seen and been in fights where the Warrior's outgoing Dmg was the only reason the group made the dps check. How do I know? Because two of the Dps were dead and we still made it. The Warrior was working a PvP burst dmg rotation (you can look it up in the PvP forums if you want the exact rotation. It's pretty impressive, and has an obscenely high output), and that's more than enough to make a difference.

So, the question is, why is the high dmg output of a Warrior, something which has been proven to be an effective means of meeting DPS checks (which are supposed to be the responsibility of the dps... kinda in the name) and is now considered the Meta for clearing high end raids (at least until gear levels get higher) somehow not considered stepping on the Dps's toes, but a Pld self healing through a tank buster (something that a Warrior can already do with the right cooldowns), is somehow considered stepping on the toes of the healer?

[Kosmos992k]

Don't get me wrong here, I don't have any particular desire to see clemency turned into an insta-cast, and I see your point... but no.

Shelltron does not restore anywhere near the amount of Mp required to cast Clemency, so if you're dry on Mp getting a Shelltron in will not help you, and you can only use shelltron once every 30 seconds. Even if Shelltron restored a sizable chunk of Mp instead of a tiny amount, it really isn't saving anyone's day. Not to mention the fact that if you're Off Tanking, you have no way of restoring that Mp using shelltron anyway because you're not blocking any physical hits (unless there happens to be a few adds running around that the dps were slow getting to).

I know, but the example given had 30-45 seconds of riot blade to recover MP without mentioning Sheltron. It wont recover all the MP, but it will cut the amount of riot blade spam required, that was the point I wanted to make. Also, clemeny takes 40% of our MP, so you only need recover about 20% of your MP over that period of time to throw in a third. I don't think clemency should be insta-cast, it's too powerful for that.

Oh, a question. If a pld uses Clemency on a dps at full health,how much healing goes to overcure, and with the splashback heal on the pld, how much would they over heal. the question being how much aggro will that overcure generate

[Kabooa]

but a Pld self healing through a tank buster (something that a Warrior can already do with the right cooldowns), is somehow considered stepping on the toes of the healer?

Because the interface sucks and it's hard to know who's healing what. You can't 'overdamage' something in a negative fashion. If it dies, it's dead, and that's great.

If either the healer or the paladin takes the time to heal the same target, then someone wasted their time, -and that can lead to someone else dying for it.- The 'incoming' lines are sluggish compared to other 'incoming' systems in other games, so you're far more likely to slam on the healing to someone who already had one coming.

I really miss GRID from Warcraft.

[Februs]

Also, clemeny takes 40% of our MP, so you only need recover about 20% of your MP over that period of time to throw in a third. I don't think clemency should be insta-cast, it's too powerful for that.
Oh, a question. If a pld uses Clemency on a dps at full health,how much healing goes to overcure, and with the splashback heal on the pld, how much would they over heal. the question being how much aggro will that overcure generate

I agree. I don't think Clemency should be an insta-cast either, but...Just for the sake of argument, I'll put it out there that a 3rd Clemency doesn't really make a difference. We'd be talking about a single clemency cast gained by a riot blade combo (varying with skill speed, approximately 6-8 seconds if you include the full goring blade combo goring blade), for a cast timer of 3 seconds (as it is currently). Even if the cast were instant (reducing the time to the riot blade combo alone), by the time you generate the Mp to use Clemency, the healers should have taken care of any additional healing that is required. If they haven't, than the problem is too big for a single clemency to fix, or you flat out need new healers. I know, because I've been in this exact situation. Clemency isn't saving anyone at that point, regardless of if it's an instant cast or not.

Regardless, I do agree that it is too powerful to have an instant cast timer... though, in regards to self-healing, it is still a far cry away from Warrior's Equilibrium due to a Pld's inefficient mana pool.

[Februs]

Oh, a question. If a pld uses Clemency on a dps at full health,how much healing goes to overcure, and with the splashback heal on the pld, how much would they over heal. the question being how much aggro will that overcure generate

To answer your question about Overcure aggro... the short answer would be: hardly any at all, but it depends on the target you are healing.

Overcure aggro is an interesting mechanic. The amount of aggro generated is not actually tied as strongly to the cure potency or the amount of surplus Hp restored so much as it is tied to the current target's enmity list. It's kind of hard to explain, but, basically, a healer casting hp restoration spells can only generate enmity on a mobs who are in the hate list of their current target.

Say that a Tank (A) has enmity on 3 mobs (1, 2, and 3). When the healer (B) is healing the Tank, any overcure healed to Tank A is chipping at the aggro of the Tank's 3 targets, because all 3 targets are in the Tank's hate list. Now, say that during the fight a Dps (C) attacks only Mob 3 and none of the other targets the tank has enmity on (so only mob 3 is in his hate list), and that during the fight he claims enmity on Mob 3 (cuz he's a twat and is not attacking the Tank's primary target). The Dps C claims top enmity value on target 3.

Now, in this circumstance, if the Dps stole hate on one target and the healer over cures him, the healer is generating hate on mob 3 only. The value overcured does not increase the healer's hate on targets 1 and 2, because targets 1 and 2 were not attacking Dps C. They were not on his hate list. They did not even know he was there. So, any overcure done to Dps C isn't even on their radar. In this circumstance (assuming the tank is asleep) it would be easy for the healer to steal hate on Mob 3 from Dps C. All they would have to do is overcure Dps C beyond Dps C's enmity gen.

It is for this reason that Regen acts as such a god awful hate thief. Say Tank A runs into mob and the healer has Regen pre-cast on him. The Targets see the Tank first, and all 3 mobs are instantly placed in the Tank's hate list. Only, the VERY SECOND they appear in his list, regen acts as an overcure and they all instantly become aware of the healer. If the Tank has yet to use any enmity moves and has only secured "sight aggro," than the minuscule amount of overcure generated by regen is more than enough to steal aggro away.

The same logic applies to the use of Clemency. If you are tanking and have hate on everything, the amount of aggro you can generate from overcure is tiny because you're working against yourself (which means if the self heal is over-curing, it basically does nothing for you). Your enmity gen combos will do far more for you than overcure ever could. That's not to say it does nothing, but even if we could spam Clemency the entire fight it would not be enough to maintain aggro. Any Off Tanks using a proper enmity generation combo could steal enmity off of you in short order.

Conversely, if you are Off Tanking, the amount of enmity generation from overcuring can only do as much as the hate bar of the current target. Meaning that if you are healing a Dps, you are extremely unlikely to steal aggro off of the Main Tank. The MT would literally have to stop tanking for it to be even possible (which is why Healers almost never steal hate in Raids.... unless the Tank is dead) The only time it would ever be an issue is if you dramatically outgeared the MT. We're talking, you'd have to outgear him/her so much that the scaling you are getting off of DET/STR for Clemency is actually exceeding the Bonus Combo Enmity generated by the MT's primary combo, including that combo's own scaling with the MT's DET/STR stats. Obviously this is extremely improbable.

TL;DR. Does overcure from Clemency generate aggro? Yes. It generates tiny amounts of aggro that you are unlikely to lose primary hate on a single target if you use 2 Clemency's back to back. Does it secure enough aggro to maintain enmity on its own or steal hate off of another target. No. Even if spamming clemency were possible, it would be highly unlikely that it would ever steal aggro from another target or maintain aggro over another tank or high dmg output dps. This would only be possible in extreme and rare circumstances.

[Februs]

Because the interface sucks and it's hard to know who's healing what. You can't 'overdamage' something in a negative fashion. If it dies, it's dead, and that's great.

If either the healer or the paladin takes the time to heal the same target, then someone wasted their time, -and that can lead to someone else dying for it.- The 'incoming' lines are sluggish compared to other 'incoming' systems in other games, so you're far more likely to slam on the healing to someone who already had one coming.

I really miss GRID from Warcraft.

The problem with this is that the 3 second cast of Clemency ensures that any overcuring done will most certainly be done by the tank. Healers can fire of their Hp restorations much faster than a Pld can fire off a Clemency, not to mention the fact that they can AoE heal, and often do, following one of those pesky AoE move that bosses use.

Secondly, even if the cast were instant, Clemency can only be used twice, three times at the most with stretch Mp regen, before the Pld is dry and can no longer cast. No Pld is using Clemency willy-nilly. They are either using it in emergencies (which these days may, sadly, include being dry on TP... /weep) or for planned usage during Tank busts. In the former case, they are self healing (regardless of if the cast is directly on them or another target). There is no way that Clemency, even with it's ridiculous cure potency, can overcure a tank through a tank buster. They're not hurting anyone by using it. All they'd be doing is removing additional strain off of the healers by saving their own ass, and, again, this is something that War's do all the time. I have never heard a healer complain about War's self-healing getting in the way of them curing the rest of the group. This would be no different.

Thirdly, the concept of a Pld's use of Clemency "wasting a healers time" and thus leading to the death of another party member is kind of made a mute point by the simple fact that there is a second healer in Raids. The second healer can cast their spells faster and far more frequently than a Pld ever could, and is far more likely to waste their fellow healers time than a one-shot use of Clemency from a Pld. If we're going to consider "wasting a healer's time" as an issue because of sluggish targeting bars (which is even less of an issue for the Pld because healers usually have the Main Tank focus targeted, and thus, know exactly when the Pld is using Clemency), than by that same logic we might as well do away with the second healer, because it's awfully inconvenient when they accidentally heal the same target as the first healer and wipe the team.

Obviously this is not the case, and I'm over dramatizing a bit, but the point is sound. I don't want Clemency to be an instant cast, but there really is nothing wrong or over-powered about a Pld being able to self-heal using Clemency. It's no different (actually even less effective) than Warriors using innerbeast/equilibrium, and I've never heard anyone express concern over War's stepping on healer's toes. By comparison, Clemency doesn't even come close.

[Shenon]

Make Clemency uninterruptible = Skill fixed. I tend to use it during A1S when the Healers have to heal trough the Missiles shortly before the Tankbusters. Either before (if i´m low on HP because Sword Oath) or during the Tankbuster so i get the Heal just when the Damage hits (works 90% of the Time with the right Timing)

Or during A2S when im tanking the 2 Dolls (Phase 7 it is i think) or during the last Phase to allow the Healers some more Time to DPS.

It is a usefull Skill if you know how and when to use it, and im glad we have it.