Paladin: The Tank Mountain

[winsock]

My friend and I were talking about block... and If paladins have a trait to make clemency quicker? for an emergency?

I can be on board for clemency having a surecast effect in certain scenarios, but you gotta be careful with the cast speed.

Healers have limited instaheals and its their job to manage those saves appropriately. An insta-save clemency steps on toes here.

Currently the long cast time allows healers to shoot their skills first. In other words, clemency doesn't take any responsibility from healers, unless the healers aren't taking it, which from a "role" standpoint is nice.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Healers have limited instaheals and its their job to manage those saves appropriately. An insta-save clemency steps on toes here.

I don't think An instant or shorter cast time on Clemency would step too far into the main healing territory if it had limitations on it i.e Divine Viel Could have an "Additional Effect: Swift Cast" attached to it which would lock instant clemency behind a 2min cooldown. Tempered Will could have a Surecast effect like other people have suggested. And like the OP said, stuff with blocks adding spell speed or reducing cast time by X seconds. Little sh*t like that would add some serious flavor to Paladin.

[Kydi]

To be honest, a warrior with equilibrium is basically taking the insta heal role without breaking the game. There were a number of occasions when I've had a 10/11k critical after the tank buster and just healed to full. An insta clemency every now and again wouldn't break the game imo.

[winsock]

I don't think An instant or shorter cast time on Clemency would step too far into the main healing territory if it had limitations on it i.e Divine Viel Could have an "Additional Effect: Swift Cast" attached to it which would lock instant clemency behind a 2min cooldown.

While I think we disagree, I do respect that you recognize that a change like this would make clemency step on healer's toes. I agree that it would add flavor to PLD, but dont like that it does so at the expense of healers.

A 2min cd sounds like quite the penalty on paper, but consider: benediction is 5mins, tetra is 1min, and PLD is a tank. I might compare it to giving healers a provoke ability that directs that lets them perform tank swaps for the tanks. If this tankswap ability had an 80 second cooldown, it would still step to far IMO, because the mechanic is a tanking responsibility, just as managing saves is a healer responsibility.

I think one thing we can agree on, is that SE gave roles quite a bit of consideration when designing skills like clemency and divine veil, as clemency's cast time is long enough to allow the healer to take responsibility and divine veil is triggered by the healers.

To be honest, a warrior with equilibrium is basically taking the insta heal role without breaking the game.

No. A target heal and a self heal are two different things. Everyone has some responsibility for their own hp bar and this is especially true for tanks. If you'd like to make clemency a insta-cast skill, but it can only be used on the PLD casting it, I'd be fine with that from a "role" perspective.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Stuffs and things

I think this might be the first rational argument I've ever read/had on forums ever LOL.

[Seku]

No. A target heal and a self heal are two different things. Everyone has some responsibility for their own hp bar and this is especially true for tanks. If you'd like to make clemency a insta-cast skill, but it can only be used on the PLD casting it, I'd be fine with that from a "role" perspective.

Nah. Should stay as it is and be instant anyway. If WAR's can push out good DPS, nothing wrong with PLD getting two cures every now and again as OT and consistently as MT. The only thing that sould be looked at maybe is the fact that they are cured themselves a bit when they cure someone else with said spell

[winsock]

snip

Your logic doesnt make sense. You're saying: "WARs tank + dps; therefore, paladins should insta-heal and dps."

PLD currently "gets 2 cures every now and again." Im fine with that as well, just not as an instant heal. Here's the difference:
If a war pushes high dps, how does the war step on the toes of the DPS role? It doesnt.

The DPS role is mainly to keep high "damage per second" i.e. to maintain a rate. If a WAR maintains high DPS, it doesnt limit a dps player's ability to maintain high dps.

With instant heals, if PLD uses an insta-cast clemency as a save, it means the healer doesnt get to perform the save. In other words, the PLD would step on the healer's toes.

Not to mention, it would give a tanking class what would arguably be the best insta-heal in the game.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Not to mention, it would give a tanking class what would arguably be the best insta-heal in the game.

Let's not get crazy. Tetragrama-whatever is a high potency AoE heal on a fairly short CD. In terms of raw potency, that takes the title of "best insta-heal"

[Zeyn]

snip

I understand and respect your argument, but I disagree on your vision of healers.

A healer's job is to keep people healed. They counter the dmg the boss puts out, and they keep people alive. They counter damage from mechanics and heal after a big hit. If someone screws up, they save their life or raise them.

But none of that, in my mind, is an emergency heal. An emergency heal is when something goes wrong, and you need a heal RIGHT NOW or the raid wipes. It can be as easy as a healer having to move instead of heal the tank, or as bad as one healer going down and someone is about to die during the raise. If PLD's heal was fast, it would help the healer not take their job.

Tanks and healers work together. Tanks use cooldowns and healers ready heals for expected damage. You shouldn't expect the tank to do both, and that would be bad design. I see no reason to limit one class's abilities so that they literally can't help.

[Seku]

Your logic doesnt make sense. You're saying: "WARs tank + dps; therefore, paladins should insta-heal and dps."

PLD currently "gets 2 cures every now and again." Im fine with that as well, just not as an instant heal. Here's the difference:
If a war pushes high dps, how does the war step on the toes of the DPS role? It doesnt.

The DPS role is mainly to keep high "damage per second" i.e. to maintain a rate. If a WAR maintains high DPS, it doesnt limit a dps player's ability to maintain high dps.

With instant heals, if PLD uses an insta-cast clemency as a save, it means the healer doesnt get to perform the save. In other words, the PLD would step on the healer's toes.

Not to mention, it would give a tanking class what would arguably be the best insta-heal in the game.

Never said anything about PLD's dps.

War's fellcleave is among the highest potency Weapon skills in the game.

No healer is going to care about a PLD curing itself after a tank buster or a DPS that messed up and will actually probably thank them since it would ease up the difficulty on them. It would also push PLD in the direction that people think it's at, and that is freeing up the healer's to DPS.