Would a "Vengeance" mechnic help balance Tank?

[Duelle]

Adding my voice to this, Vengeance made tank damage overpowered. On paper it sounds like a good idea because you're effectively making tank damage output dependent on damage taken.

I'm not sure why you'd implement that here, though. If it's to even out damage while in tank stance, why not just remove the penalties from Grit/Shield Oath/Defiance and rebalance the damage output of the three tanks around that?

[Jandor]

It's a bit... passive, isn't it?

Shifting some potency more towards abilities that can only be used after being hit would achieve the same sort of effect but in a more active way I'd think.

[Ralvenom]

It's a bit... passive, isn't it?

Shifting some potency more towards abilities that can only be used after being hit would achieve the same sort of effect but in a more active way I'd think.

Since this thread was asking whether bringing an old WoW mechanic in would fix things, I'll tell you what happened with ANOTHER WoW mechanic: Active Mitigation ( http://wow.gamepedia.com/Active_Mitigation ). Basically, the way it works is:

[...] The removal of threat as a nail-biting concern (after the first few seconds of the fight) meant that tanks' most common life/death decisions were about when to spend (relatively-) long-cooldown defensive abilities.

In contrast, active mitigation gives tanks abilities that are used frequently, but affect their long-term survival in borderline fights. A skilled tank is the one who continuously makes choices that reduce the amount of damage they take, or reduce the amount of mana healers spend upon them and the raid. Unskilled tanks given the same abilities will use them at the "wrong" time, or at suboptimal moments that place a larger load on the healers and the rest of the raid, and can lead to a wipe on progression content.

Death knights were the inspiration/laboratory for active mitigation through their [Death Strike] ability which included a healing component whose exact mechanics rewarded tanks who could time their usage against incoming damage. This decision-making happens regularly as the tank is in combat and tanks can distinguish themselves by using this ability more skilfully than others. [...]

1) Without threat, things were boring. You just stood there and did your rotation. There were no threat-generating abilities, because the only thing that affected threat was a tank swap. And you just hit taunt and carried on.
2) Most of the tank specs had this design shoe-horned into them. It worked ok for some, but was rough for others. The afore-mentioned Death Knight ability was great, but it really sucked as a Warrior (who WERE the *physical mitigation* tank of WoW since...forever). So, it forced players to completely rethink their playstyle, sometimes in an awkward way. For instance, Warriors used Shield Block a lot. Yay...
3) A different version of this model was introduced by a free MMO known as Tera ( http://tera.enmasse.com/game-guide/the-basics ). This basically involved using the "Dodge" action to avoid big hits entirely.

In short, Active Mitigation gives players things to do. BUT it doesn't change things a lot, in terms of how tanks are right now. You would CDs more often, but said CDs would be weaker. On the whole, it would rather equalize out. Encounters would change, but I doubt the class design in FFXIV would change. You won't fix PLD MT dps by changing the tanking design as a whole.

[Nadirah]

They replaced it with Resolve, and are shitcanning it entirely in Legion.

[pushin_tin]

OP must not have had the pleasure of 1v1ing a Blood DK as a melee when Vengeance worked in PvP.

[Kabooa]

It did a olot, actually. You must never have tanked there.

It was so broke, tanks in lower bracket pvp was wrecking *everyone*, my raids bear tank out dps'd some of our dps on group pulls, and they removed it in WoD. They replaced it with Resolve, which is just as broken, so they're scrapping it entirely for Legion.

Oh man did it ever.

Tank paladins at the opening of pandaria were broken as all hell. Top damage, top healing, top absorb, they basically added 2-3 raid slots to your team.

[Instrumentality]

I hope they add it as literally as possible from Mist.

Also let me /sit to take an auto crit so I can build more vengeance, SE. I wanna double the dps of dps jobs.

[Ralvenom]

I hope they add it as literally as possible from Mist.

Also let me /sit to take an auto crit so I can build more vengeance, SE. I wanna double the dps of dps jobs.

That's not how vengeance is intended to work, & I guarantee SE won't be implementing any mechanics in such a way as to make it so actual dedicated dps jobs are irrelevant. Stop trolling; git gud.

[Instrumentality]

That's not how vengeance is intended to work, & I guarantee SE won't be implementing any mechanics in such a way as to make it so actual dedicated dps jobs are irrelevant. Stop trolling; git gud.

I am 100% certain that Vengeance was intended to return damage taken as damage output for tanks and surviving critical attacks was completely legitimate as a way to boost raid dps.

And Vengeance can never make actual dps jobs irrelevant because you have to, guess what, be taking damage for it to work. Unless the boss cleaves in a manner that is both survivable and enough of a Vengeance builder for six tanks to stand in it with healers out healing it that they do more dps than a traditional dps. (This never happens.) Try harder next time.

[Ralvenom]

I am 100% certain that Vengeance was intended to return damage taken as damage output for tanks and surviving critical attacks was completely legitimate as a way to boost raid dps.

If we look at how vengeance worked in ACTUAL raid environments, tank dps was still much lower than the dps of the actual damage specs. It was NEVER intended for you to be doing more dps than anyone else in the raid, so quit making a trolling statement that someone (who doesn't know how vengeance works) could misconstrue as half-way serious.

And Vengeance can never make actual dps jobs irrelevant because you have to, guess what, be taking damage for it to work. [...] Try harder next time.

lol, you silly person...this is what I was saying!.../facepalm