Would a "Vengeance" mechnic help balance Tank?

[xvshanevx]

*Sigh* Spelled mechanic wrong T_T And poorly phrased title. My bad.

Hi Everyone!

As I was walking to class today, an idea hit me about the current state of tanking, and was a bit disappointed when really mulling it over. I would like to know what you guys would think of the idea to change a part of the current tanking meta.

Disclaimer
I would venture that most FFXIV players would try and stay as far away from truning FFXIV into just another WoW-clone. But, as it stands this game is already extremely similar to WoW, which is why I am posting or proposing this idea for change. But, also, when readying this please take in the consideration that I am not advocating to make this game just another "WoW," but instead trying to come up with a valid way to help balance the current "DPS-tank" meta. What I am looking for is to allow more combinations of tanks inside of a raid group. My memories of WoW were that you could have almost any combo of classes and still do the most difficult content. Something I would like to see in this game, since now that we have gone past only have 2 different kinds of tanks/healers.

The idea of a tank doing DPS seemed to have picked up traction with WAR gaining so many offensive abilities. I'm sure that YoshiP and Co. recognized this and why they placed such large DPS checks in so much current content. I don't clearly remember any fights in CoB or Ex Primals where tight DPS checks were as mandatory as they are in Alex Savage. (I never got a chance to do SCoB Savage, so no evidence there.)

Vengeance
So, many of you may have tanked in WoW and probably know about the "Vengeance" mechanic for tanks. To those that don't know, the idea is that: whenever a tank is tanking they gain a buff that increases their damage output ("Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health."). The more that a tank tanks, the more damage they do while tanking. And off-tanking when not actually tanking is a DPS loss, but DPS check were usually in place for actual damage dealers. In other words, tanks were tanks and gained their damaged from tanking. When not tanking, they are waiting to tank

How would this work in FFXIV?
First: Tanking abilities would scale off of VIT instead of STR. I tried find some info on skills and their damage calculations, but everything I found was outdated. But what I did find was that the calcification of attacks would not change (easy example STR(500) * 2 = 1000; VIT(500) * 2 = 1000. Same output). I am sure with programming these in it is much more difficult. So, this is a QoL change for the most part, because tanks would never have to search through DPS gear to increase their overall damage, because it is already in all their needed gear. Also, Main Stat:VIT would be equalized.

Second: All tank stances are oGCD and require no MP to change, but all incur a 10 second CD. All Tanking Stances passives' would not be changed. I would like to see this change for PLD as that their stance dancing is a bit hindered when compared to DRK and WAR.

Third: Instantiate the "Vengeance" buff (or whatever YoshiP and Co. would like to call it). When tanking a enemey in a tanking stance (no tanking is Sword Oath, Deliverance, or w/e DRKs do) you gain additional damage. Such an example of this could be “If tank is in Tanking Stance and has aggro from an enemy: remove damage reduction from the tanking stance" OR "gain additional attack power by 1 stack of 1% increased AP, stacking 10 times to max of 10% attack power." This could change depending on the jobs.

Conclusion
Something like this would hopefully give players, and mainly tanks, the initiative to actually want tank and not just be a glorified DPS-tank. Please don't get me wrong about min/maxing dps as a tank or healer in this game, I understand what Alex Savage Progression is like with having EVERYONE in the raid group needing contributing to pushing DPS. What I am looking for in an idea like this is primarily allowing those that are actually tanking something also benefit the group.

Once again, I am writing this because I think this would help SE with balancing raid fights and not having raid groups worry too much about what tanking class will be needed to clear what content. The fact that YoshiP and Co. have let one of their most iconic classes get washed out like this is a bit disconcerting. As it stand, making one small change to a PLD skill does not make them increasingly viable. YoshiP and Co. need to truly rethink the tanking meta and adjust it appropriately, and maybe the healing meta too, but I’m not a healer and would leave that in more capable hands.

Now that I think of it, I would really love to think more about and elaborate on the current state of the tank meta; but I got class soon

Anyways, if you have read this, thank you very much and if plan on replying, and sharing your opinion and ideas please be considerate. We all know how a post on a forums could end up

A little About Me
I main WAR and have loved the job since 2.2. I have tried picking apart and becoming the best WAR tank that I could be by min/maxing HP thresh holds, doing max damage, etc., you guys know the gist. But, even though I would make fun of PLDs from time to time for not being WARs, I have always respected PLD players. They were the backbone (and healers too) of any raiding group. I love tanking in this game

[Ralvenom]

Do you know what it did in World of Warcraft? Absolutely nothing, that's what!

[RhazeCain]

So currently FF14 tanks gain damage by reducing their defensive and agro generating abilities (WAR Defiance -> Deliverance, DRK drop Grit, PLD Shield -> Sword Oath). And you're suggesting reversing that? To "tanking or waiting to tank". Where's the fun in waiting to tank?

At least with current setup you can have something to do (damage) while not tanking.

[Ralvenom]

So currently FF14 tanks gain damage by reducing their defensive and agro generating abilities (WAR Defiance -> Deliverance, DRK drop Grit, PLD Shield -> Sword Oath). And you're suggesting reversing that? To "tanking or waiting to tank". Where's the fun in waiting to tank?

At least with current setup you can have something to do (damage) while not tanking.

I don't think you understand...

How Vengeance in WoW worked (OP should really edit to explain this better) was 1) vengeance increased tank dps when a tank was taking a lot of damage, 2) tanks still used their tanking stances or they got no vengeance. In other words, the MT could do more dps the longer he/she tanked. Offtanking in WoW basically meant not stealing aggro from your co-tank until it was time for a tank swap, btw; it was NEVER a damage role. As such, vengeance didn't affect OT dps at all. The idea was that tanks could generate vengeance and therefore keep aggro better (especially over high damage dps classes, like Mage) and actually contribute to PvP damage.
Unfortunately, all vengeance did was make it so that tanks generated a bit more aggro. It was never significant enough of a mechanic to allow tanks to do a LOT more dps or anything like that. It wasn't intended for that. So, bringing vengeance to FFXIV wouldn't really fix anything either.

[Nadirah]

Do you know what it did in World of Warcraft? Absolutely nothing, that's what!

It did a olot, actually. You must never have tanked there.

It was so broke, tanks in lower bracket pvp was wrecking *everyone*, my raids bear tank out dps'd some of our dps on group pulls, and they removed it in WoD. They replaced it with Resolve, which is just as broken, so they're scrapping it entirely for Legion.

[Nadirah]

This.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Vengeance_(tanking_bonus)

It's outdated, however.

[Ralvenom]

It did a olot, actually. You must never have tanked there.

It was so broke, tanks in lower bracket pvp was wrecking *everyone*, my raids bear tank out dps'd some of our dps on group pulls, and they removed it in WoD. They replaced it with Resolve, which is just as broken, so they're scrapping it entirely for Legion.

My point was, it didn't fix anything. And it won't fix anything in FFXIV HW either. In end game boss content, vengeance was NEVER something you counted on, because it was inconsistent. Once you had aggro in WoW4.XX (basically the entire Cataclysm expansion), you stopped caring about vengeance. Yeah, sure, Death Knights and Bears did more dps because of it (since they took a lot of damage, compared to Warriors or Paladins). But it didn't really matter. And it didn't really fix anything in end game boss content.

If a Vengeance-like mechanic was added to FFXIV, then WAR would do even more dps than they currently do. DRK would do more dps, but less than WAR (same as now). And PLD would still be behind in dmg. Why? Because PLD IS the mitigation tank. WAR is the damage tank. DRK is the magic tank.

Also:

[Lemuel81]

hell no

[Nadirah]

It fixed the problem of threat.

Threat was directly tied to damage, and it grossly increased tank damage, therefore increased tank threat.

Their other option, that they ended up going with, was a ridiculous threat multiplier on abilities.

It didn't "do nothing" or they wouldn't have had to nerf it a number of times. It was OP. That's far from "nothing".

[Slappah]

Vengeance was crazy OP, mainly during the MoP expansion. Blood DKs especially were topping the charts for total damage done during a boss.

Like half of the fights during heroic progression of the last raid in the xpac had blood dks on top, ahead of everyone. Average dps would be about 500k at the end of a boss, meanwhile blood dk is sitting high and mighty at like 1.2m dps for the boss.

It was absolutely absurd.
Pretty sure they removed vengeance. That or they nerfed it into the ground.

I know they removed it from PvP because tanks were just absolutely shitting on everyone in every bracket. It wasn't fun having 5-7 dps sitting on a tank while he keeps himself at full hp from self heals and meanwhile building up a ton of vengeance then soloing everybody.

And I'm not exaggerating.