The Tank's Pledge (a damned fool's idealistic notion)

[Freyyy]

It's the playerbase that decided in FFXIV that tanks do the pulling.

What ? It's common in MMOs. Maybe it didn't work like that in XI, but in every MMOs I've played, it was the tank's duty to pull.

And for the stupid argument starting about "leading" and stuff. I think OP was speaking about the fact that the tank is the only one that decides how much enemies the group will fight at once by pulling 1-2-3 rooms. He's also the only one that decides where the boss is facing, if he stands in the middle of the room or in a corner. He's also the only one that has the possibility to move the fight if needed. There's plenty of things that are written in the tank role that defines it as a leader, not especially a tactical leader, but a battle leader. DPS and healer players can suggest things to the tank such as "you should tank it there" or "can you pull more please ?", but the only role that has the power to decide if he wants to execute these actions or not is the tank. As a tank you're the one that sets the pace. The other roles don't have this kind of power and must follow the tank and suggest him things they want him to do or to change. Leading also doesn't mean giving orders. In a group of people, it is common knowledge that the guy going first is leading. The others are following. It's as simple as that. I think it is completely accurate to say that the tank is leading the battle.

[Dante_V]

Just because you pull the targets does not mean you are a leader. Technically, anyone could pull. In FFXI? Healers and bards(a support job) did the pulling, or in roaming parties even DPS pulled. It's the playerbase that decided in FFXIV that tanks do the pulling. At any rate, it's fallacious to say that leading a charge makes you a leader. War generals leading their armies did not ever lead charges, they were in the back. Generals and Commanders do not rush headlong into the frontlines. Tanks control the PACE of the group, but to say they lead everything is a biased view.

Quote really just reeks of insecurity, The developers decided tanks were pulling. Do me a favor and go pull odin out in black shroud once as a Drg. Or even better, pull a hardhelm in a2s or Nael in T9 with your Drg and watch that soul stone get heavy on you. At certain levels this game has first attacks that will almost one shot any dps. Tanks literally lead the way of the group. That is their purpose. The entire rant about "omgz tanks don't lead me" isn't reality, because they do. Conflating "leading" with "dictating" against objective understanding and then calling people who acknowledge the objective truth as "biased" is a bit silly.

Tanks lead the group. You can deny this if it bothers your ego but it won't change the reality of the situation. This doesn't mean that they are better than you or control you, that's your insecurity talking. It simply means the pull and pace the runs. If you want to do this you are more than welcome to tank also, if not then you follow the tank. If this type of setup bothers you then a trinity MMO is not the thing for you.

[Jpec07]

Just because you pull the targets does not mean you are a leader. {...} It's the playerbase that decided in FFXIV that tanks do the pulling. At any rate, it's fallacious to say that leading a charge makes you a leader. {...} Tanks control the PACE of the group, but to say they lead everything is a biased view.

What I'm saying is that because of that mechanical control of pace, tanks are the mechanical leaders of the group. While others may step up and take a more controlling leadership role (because every group has a leader--that's just how groups work), the fact is that tanks (usually) literally lead their groups. They go first. They usually determine where the group goes, and how fast. That is mechanical leadership.

What I'm trying to accomplish with this (and you'll see this if you read the pledge) is to get tanks off their high horses. Yes, they are literal, mechanical leaders. But that doesn't give them an excuse to be complete, self-absorbed a-holes. A good leader serves their group, supports them as best as they can, exercises good, positive communication, and listens to and incorporates feedback. Many tanks don't do this, and so they are bad leaders. I'm trying to change that.

War generals leading their armies did not ever lead charges, they were in the back. Generals and Commanders do not rush headlong into the frontlines.

Good thing we're not generals, then. And good thing we aren't leading armies. If anything, the better analogy would be a strike team or small task force, both of which have commanders that control the group's movement and behavior, and in some cases literally lead the charge.

[Hernan_Rivera]

I tank and I feel like a slave, never feel like a leader at all. I am there getting bullied, clawed, smashed, thrown, etc. etc.
When a mob hit a healer, healer will be like "get em off me, you dirty peasant tank"
When a mob hit dps, dps will be like "How dare you let these trash touch me, you slave tank"

Agree with you, tanks always receive complains, that why I prefer DPS and even so I'm not depending for the tank to receive all the damage nor the healer to cure me all the time

[Kosmos992k]

You see, your first sentence in the pledge is exactly what's wrong with the mentality of tanks. You are NOT the leader, no one is, ever, at all, period. You are all there as a TEAM, and not a single person can run any dungeon solo. Once everyone accepts that fact, realizing what it means, then and only then will people be able to get through this game in a good attitude. There are some good, some bad, and some down right ugly.

I'll argue that point. Functionally the tank is the leader. It's their role to start the pulls, and pace the dungeon appropriately to the party (and their own limits). They are expected to know the dungeon and fights within it, and lead the charge at each Boss fight. They are blamed when something goes wrong. As such, they are the defacto leader of the party in many functional ways. Granted they might not be the Party leader or the person who organized the run, but in the dungeon, during the fights, the tank is by virtue of their role in the position of leadership; they are expected to manage the fights and control the mobs & Boss. That is leadership.

As for the point about being there as a team, of course you are, but every team has a leader or 'field general', the person who takes the lead. Saying the tank is the 'leader' does not mean that there is no team or that the tank is more important than the team. Far from it. Personally I've always felt that the best, and I mean *BEST* leaders lead by serving the team and allowing the team to excel, effectively leading by doing everything they can to allow the team members to do their best, and actively removing obstacles that might block their way; sometimes that role will include setting a direction, or controlling the pace. However, the tank role is functionally a leadership position during combat, and it can't really be any other way.

Just because you pull the targets does not mean you are a leader. Technically, anyone could pull. In FFXI? Healers and bards(a support job) did the pulling, or in roaming parties even DPS pulled. It's the playerbase that decided in FFXIV that tanks do the pulling. At any rate, it's fallacious to say that leading a charge makes you a leader. War generals leading their armies did not ever lead charges, they were in the back. Generals and Commanders do not rush headlong into the frontlines. Tanks control the PACE of the group, but to say they lead everything is a biased view.

Yes, generals do not lead from the front, they leave that to the Captains, Lieutenants and Sergeants, each of whom is expected to lead their unit within the rules of operation, mission brief and/or specific orders from above that they have been given. Applying your logic, there would be no field commanders at all, no officers in command of units, it would just be a bit 'team' of people with guns. Hope they all know the rules of engagement and targets, because if not, there's gonna be a crap-ton of mistakes made.

[dank1]

The problem is when tanks start RPing like this, talking too much while not performing or complaining too much. Your job is to make sure content gets cleared, so give whoever stands between you and that the boot.

[_slowpoke_]

I think this thread is devolving into pointless semantics over what "leading" means to different people.

Yes, "leading" can mean being the person at the front of the group who paces the run and controls positioning, i.e the tank. It can also mean the person coordinating the group - which I find myself doing as a healer quite a lot, because more often than not I have a better overview of the battle than the tank(s). Heck, in some fights, people - irrespective of their role - are designated as "leaders" for certain mechanics because they know them well and can "lead" the group through them (Resin Bombs during Lift-off in A1S are a good example, I'm sure there are more).

Thing is: none of these definitions are wrong. Sometimes, all of them are done by the same person, at other times the responsibilities are split among multiple people.

On the actual topic: it's a neat idea, though a lot of the things in the pledge really apply to all roles. I support this.

[Aika_Nakamura]

You see, your first sentence in the pledge is exactly what's wrong with the mentality of tanks. You are NOT the leader, no one is, ever, at all, period. You are all there as a TEAM, and not a single person can run any dungeon solo. Once everyone accepts that fact, realizing what it means, then and only then will people be able to get through this game in a good attitude. There are some good, some bad, and some down right ugly.

While I agree with you to an extent, you're partially incorrect. Yes, every party member is equally as important to complete a duty the way it was meant to be completed. Yes, you can also get by pretty easily if you're missing any role that's not a healer (unless you have a stellar SMN who is carrying healing accessories for some reason).

However, tanks ARE the most leadership figure in the entire party. It is the tank who leads the party into battle and it is the tank who protects his "weaker" party members. You don't run around and follow the DRG, you don't (always) run around and follow the WHM. You follow the PLD/WAR/DRK. The definition of "leader" is "one who leads or guides". Doesn't that sound A LOT like a tank?

I like your line of thinking, but those who read into it should not take it at face value. It's like saying "no one can run a corporation solo" -- anyone can tell you that. However, the CEO is the one calling all of the shots. You have a lot of smaller "departments" working together, but ultimately if the CEO wants something done, it's probably going to happen.

"CEO = Tanks" -Me, 2015

[Mercutial]

snip

A shining beacon of reason shines thru this semantic pissing contest. Yeah... the tank is in a sense the "leader" when it comes to "leading" the group physically into battle. Yeah... Joe Schmoe the MCH may actually exercise leadership by doing all mech call outs during a raid. Yeah... Suzy Q the AST may also lead the way in doing all preemptive homework for the team before entering a raid for the first time. Yeah... Joe Blow the MNK may also lead by rarely (if ever) failing mechanics.

Anyone can become a leader. Anyone can remain a follower. The follower may actually be more skilled than the leader. At the end of the day, can the team pull together offering what they can individually to down the given content? In the end, there's only TEAM.

[Sevyrr]

Two things struck me, as I read this thread. (He says, preparing a slight topic necromancy.)
The Pledge seems pretty solid, and I can definitely agree that it would lead to runs with a better attitude (or that one guy who responds to any form of RP within an RPG with "lol nerd").

Also, the DPS code of conduct is almost 100% spot on.