3.1 : Astrologian "adjustments''

[Lilith_Merquise]

A lot of stuff, and a lot of things.

So here are the raw stats put side by side (only comparing Diurnal with WHM)


HEALING
Benefic - 400 Potency
Cure - 400 Potency
= Equal

Helios - 300 Potency
Medica - 300 Potency
= Equal

Benefic II - 650 Potency
Cure II - 650 Potency
= Equal

Aspected Benefic - 240 Cure Potency
Medica II - 250 Cure Potency
= False (And I guess a 10y difference if you're a baby and care about that sort of thing, still doesn't change that this is false @Namo-guy)

???? - ????
Cure III - 550 Cure Potency AoE
= False

Essential Dignity - 400 Potency x Target Missing HP, 40s
Benediction - Restores all Target's HP, 300s
= Depends (do you want instant cap and longer CD, or more large chunk healing with lower CD)

Aspected Benefic - 190 + (140 * 6) = 1030 cure potency , 18s
Regen - 150 *7 = 1050 potency, 21s
= False (thank you for correction @File2ish @Sleigh @MidnightTundra)

Assize - 300 Potency cure to all party members, 300 DPS to all enemies, 10% of max MP restored
Celestial Opposition - Stuns all enemies in range for 4s, increase buffs by 5s
= False (grossly false at that...)

Collective Unconscious - 150 Cure Potency and damaged reduced by 10% (15s)
Asylum - 100 potency (24s)
= Depends (sure AST is stronger here, but it's less duration meaning you can't pop it too early, and it grounds you were as the other does not for less potency)

????? - ??????
Tetragrammaton = Cure Potency 700 (60s recast)
= False (kinda makes up for the benediction being 300 giving WHM 2 big "Oh No Buttons!")


I'm not going to touch the DPS side of things because that is it's own discussion but here lets go into abilities.


ABILITIES
Cards (and abilities relating, draw, shuffle, dilation, etc.) = Their own buffs
???? - ?????
= Better (yep card buffs do help, even if its very small and not very long it is a leg up.)

Synastry = 40% of a cure goes to someone you mark and increases potency by 20% for 20s
Divine Seal = Increases potency of all healing magic by 30% for 15s
= Depends (want 30% for all abilities for everybody lasting 15s, or want 40% of a cure to go to 1 person for 20s, both are beneficial)

Lightspeed = Reduces MP by 25% and cast times by 2.5s reducing magic attack potency by 25% for 10s
Presence of Mind = Increases Spell speed by 20% for 15s
= Depends (mp reduction and caped 2.5 off casting with a -25% dps penalty, or a scaling 20% that doesn't reduce MP cost doesn't reduce potency and lasts longer).


.... Oh and further more that isn't even the traits in which AST is grossly lacking compared to WHM.


TRAITS
Enhanced Light speed - decreases DPS penalty to 25% from 50% (shouldn't need a trait for what it should be)
Enhanced Medica - 20% Medica MP will b halved.
= False (I would much rather be conservative then given an ability I should have without the trait)

Enhanced Essential Dignity - 40s recast now (shouldn't need a trait for what it should be)
Quick Stoneskin - 2.5s cast time
= False (I would rather a faster shield then given a trait for what I should already have)

Enhanced Benefic - 15% chance Benefic II will be instant cast.
Freecure - 15% a Cure will make a Cure II Free.
= Depends (a Free cure 2 or a fast one, I would rather free, but fast is helpful in run and gun)

Enhancd Disable - Increase reduction to 10% (Shouldn't need a trait for what it should be)
Overcure - 15% chance your next Cure II will half the cost of your next Cure III
= False (I would rather a cheaper AoE cure option for conservation then an ability I should already have)


7 = FALSE that AST is better then WHM
5 = Depends both are pretty good but somewhat different from each other (essentially a draw but not equal)
2 = BETTER in which AST is technically better then a WHM
3 = EQUAL when AST and WHM are equal in every way.



Right here.... Most of the traits AST gets, are what the abilities should be anyway with out the need of traits making them more reasonable. That's like giving a kid a remote control car, with no wheels, and then on their next birthday giving them the wheels to put on the car.... Where as WHM have traits that enhance what they already have not giving you part of what it is and giving the rest later...

You seem to be recognized for being hard headed and not willing to listen, but I figured I would at least take the time to point out why it is you're wrong, and at least it will give me the access to point it out later when you make this silly claim that AST will replace WHM in some upside down world.

What this shows is that our abilities are slightly different and while AST is best with card buffs and Aspected benefic over Regen. AST is failing in having a 2nd "oh no" button cure, a multi purpose AoE ability (Assize vs C.O.), a third and strongest AoE heal at a stronger potency then the other 2....

We give a massive cure, multi purpose AoE ability, and a 3rd AoE heal..... for cards and a stronger single target regen heal..... Also we give up traits that enhance our classes efficiency for traits that give us the abilities we should already have and yet we are superior?....... You say we'll be replacing WHM how soon again?



I'm not writing this because I think AST should have what WHM has or should be better then WHM, I'm putting this hear because I disagree entirely with AST being better then any current healer, and claiming that it is even equal to the other healers is being far too kind and grossly misinformed... A great healer can make this class work, no doubt, but it would be better if it was actually put on an equal footing with the others rather then held back by it's major setbacks in the healing dept and lack of emphasis on the cards which are meant to make up for its lack of healing.

[File2ish]

.... Oh and further more that isn't even the abilities in which AST is grossly lacking compared to WHM.

Oh you mean our attack spells and stuff? Yeah. You don't even need to cover those. WHM beats AST hands down in terms of damage output.

AST pretty much only wins in the utility game because of cards + expand/extend/enhance and time dialation, obviously. But WHM won't be replaced by AST any time soon because of it.

[Sleigh]

Aspected Benefic - 390 cure potency (initial+regen), 18s
Regen - 150 potency, 21s
= Better (ours wins hands down no doubt here)

Aspected Benefic: 190 potency + 140 X 6 ticks = 1030 potency
Regen = 150 X 7 ticks = 1050 potency

Regen wins, hands down. Especially because Synastry only affects the initial hit with its extra 40% bonus, 840 potency is only buffed by 20% while Regen's entire duration is buffed (more constantly, too, 60s CD vs 90s CD) by Divine Seal's 30%.

[Ghishlain]

I figure I'll just put my two cents on the table since it's talked about so much in these last few pages.

• AST's Benefic, Benefic II, and Helios are slightly more powerful than WHMs Cure, Cure II, and Medica when you allow for Diurnal's Sect bonus. Admittedly, Haste has always been a weird thing for healers because you should never be in a position to chain heal, but AST spells will always land faster than WHM spells giving it a very minor edge.
• When looking at raw power, Aspected Benefic wins. Aspected Benefic gives you 1,030 Potency in 18 seconds. Regen gives you 900 Potency in the same 18 seconds. While you will have to apply Apsected Benefic more often, it still gives you more healing over the same period of time versus Regen at the cost of more MP and more GCDs used. And of course it's always encouraged to have your single target HoT up 100% of the time outside of a few select instances (add spawning, for example).
• Essential Dignitiy should be compared to Tetragrammaton - not Benediction. Both serve as similar burst heal buttons on short recasts. When you do that comparison, you get three EDs off in same time you get two Tetras. If the target is below 80% of their max health on each ED application, ED will heal for more in that same two minute period. ED overall wins this argument in my mind.
• If the AST gets two ticks of CU out, CU actually does more healing than Asylum. CU at 6 ticks (holding still for two server ticks) grants 900 Potency of heal to the target(s). Asylum caps at 800 Potency. It's still situational which one is better however, as CU does indeed ground the AST for two+ ticks (as rightfully noted)
• I don't like the comparison to all the traits - but there is one trait does need mentioning and that's Freecure. Freecure is what gives WHM the longevity and power that surpasses AST and nothing can take that away from WHM. Anyone advocating Enhanced Benefic should equal Freecure needs to realize if you do that, you're stripping one of the most potent tools available to the WHM repertoire.

Also, where's Disable in the list? WHM has no equal from the base toolkit until you start taking into account cross classes.

[File2ish]

I figure I'll just put my two cents on the table since it's talked about so much in these last few pages.

• When looking at raw power, Aspected Benefic wins. Aspected Benefic gives you 1,030 Potency in 18 seconds. Regen gives you 900 Potency in the same 18 seconds. While you will have to apply Apsected Benefic more often, it still gives you more healing over the same period of time versus Regen at the cost of more MP and more GCDs used. And of course it's always encouraged to have your single target HoT up 100% of the time outside of a few select instances (add spawning, for example).

Just saying, Regen does 7 ticks of 150 potency (1 tick is 3 seconds, regen lasts 21 seconds). That's 1050 potency, not 900.

[Ghishlain]

Just saying, Regen does 7 ticks of 150 potency (1 tick is 3 seconds, regen lasts 21 seconds). That's 1050 potency, not 900.

You missed the bit where I said "over the same period of time". Assuming you maintain Regen and Aspected Benefic on the tank 100% of the time after hate is established, Aspected Benefic will give you more potency over the course of the entire fight.

Notice how Aspected Benefic is 1,030 Potency over 6 ticks while Regen is 1,050 potency over 7 ticks.

Aspected Benefic = more potent
Regen = more MP efficient and more potent/GCD

It's a small but very important difference when looking at the two spells side-by-side that a lot of players tend to ignore.

[Fevelle]

Also, where's Disable in the list? WHM has no equal from the base toolkit until you start taking into account cross classes.

Cleric Stance ate it.

Seriously, they should at least make Cleric Stance into a general action much like LB, but only for the healers. It's just a waste having it as an actual skill.

[Lilith_Merquise]

Good points

... Disable though?....

Disable is a joke, sure it can help with a massive AoE, but it's right up there with MCH Dismantle.... rarely ever used, and on a CD too long to be considered very effective, the same goes for Virus. It's not a bad ability, just has such a niche use it's hardly worth mentioning.

Diurnal doesn't effect standard spells, it only applies an effect when using Aspected spells, and on top of that Diurnal only gives an increase to attack sped by 5% making your GCD reset faster, but Nocturnal effects potency.... Which is so useless IMO, would much rather it give -5% MP cost.

As for comparing it to Tetra or Bene, I was just going down the list but that is a fair point being that it is more similar to Tetra. But the main point I'm illustrating is that WHM has 2 big cures where as AST has 1.

I agree CU can do more for a party if used right then Asylum, on top of its damage reduction which is great, but the differnce is that you have to plant yourself, where as WHM's can drop and forgt about it, both having their own beneficial use which is why I made it more of a draw, but I would say that I lean more towards CU.

And frankly I don't feel the trait comparison is not fair, what isn't fair is you look at how many of our traits increase potency and decrease timers, but then you look at WHM and SCH, and their traits actually augment the usefulness of prexisting abilities. Sure they have some cast or potency buffs, but AST has far too many of them as opposed to the other healers.

I'm not here to say that we deserve exactly what WHM has or SCH has, I'm again supporting equal but unique, if we can't heal as hard, we should be able to buff harder to reduce the necessity of healing as much. I'm not asking for WHM's traits and abilities, I even listed what I wanted for this class a while back in this thread which doesn't steal from the other 2 classes. The main point was to say "No, AST Will not be replacing a WHM or SCH any time soon"