Tank Balance

[LadyCeles]

I would love to see shield swipe on ogcd(this will also help with eminity but i never have eminity problems) If its too strong u can raise the time of the cd or lower the potency a little. Also taking ur oaths off gcd will help. And for tp issues u can lower fast blade by 5 or 10 tp. Doing these will keep the same playstyle while helping out with eminity, tp and dps (doesnt need to be as much as war or drk but a little more than it has now)

[eagledorf]

doesnt need to be as much as war or drk

I don't think people are really thinking clearly when they say things like this. PLD needs to actually out-DPS WAR and in some situations DRK by a fairly substantial amount in order for the DPS to be balanced. Why?

In the case of DRK, their DPS goes up a great deal if they're taking physical damage. For PLD to get the same numbers in real encounters as DRK, they need to do much more on a dummy (I would actually prefer they adjust this to some degree so that DRK doesn't "need" to MT as much as it does now). In fact this is sort of the situation you have now with WAR and DRK where WAR does better on a dummy, but DRK does the same or sometimes more in actual encounters.

In the case of WAR, their DPS is huge in burst. So if, for example, a WAR gets pulled into Quarantine the DPS loss is minimal compared to a DRK or PLD since they've already finished their 3x Fell Cleave opener. This was really apparent in 2.0 when PLD could out-DPS WAR on dummies, but very rarely did so in encounters.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

I'd like to ask the forum goers to please avoid discussion about supposed "useless" skills and focus on factually verifiable issues that are either present or may become prevalent in the future. The use of some skills like Shield Swipe may not be optimal in their current state but they do reduce incoming damage by forcing enemies to only auto attack for a certain amount of time.


A thought occurred to me last night with how the STR debuff will more than likely need to be moved to Savage Blade if the next raid tier is "more physical." There's never not a need to do more damage to the enemy and the STR debuff "might" be needed next raid tier as well, so why not maximize enemy damage reduction and DPS at the same time. It guarantees 100% application while allowing you to either build aggro or do damage from the various skill trees a Paladin has. My main focus with what I speak about now and in the recent past is preparing jobs for the future and this is HIGHLY suggested. If this change is made I'd also like to suggest buffing the Savage Blade enmity modifier to/or close to that of Rage of Halone's enmity. The other jobs will still be able to bury Paladin in aggro because of the 'PLD doesn't do DPS, it's "mitigation king" status that the developers have forced onto Paladins.

Obviously some other changes need to occur such as quality of life changes on Shield Swipe, possibly Sheltron, slight potency tweaks, maybe enmity multipliers, etc. but that's up to the developers since they force roles for jobs anyway.....

[LadyCeles]

Yea not thinking clearly... have the best mitigation class be the best dps class as a tank too. I dont want to play the broken character. We can be 3rd in dps thats not to far off, if we also have the most mitigation and utility

[Sapphidia]

I'd like to ask the forum goers to please avoid discussion about supposed "useless" skills and focus on factually verifiable issues that are either present or may become prevalent in the future. The use of some skills like Shield Swipe may not be optimal in their current state but they do reduce incoming damage by forcing enemies to only auto attack for a certain amount of time.

This is very short sighted to say (i wont be pedantic and point out that shield swipe's pacification -is- basically useless on all bosses, important mobs and a lot of trash, i know what you meant), because you can't look at things in isolation. You can't just ignore Shield Swipe which is a tool the paladin has but is basically worthless in its current incarnation PURELY DUE TO THE NUMBERS, and then try and fix the class by suggesting big changes to things like strength debuffs being moved around.

Shield Swipe is very very important to look at because it's a skill that has -become- useless in the space of an expansion. It saved TP whenever it procced. It increased your DPS whenever you pressed it because it did more potency damage than your average rage of halone combo (210 vs 203.3). You WANTED to press it as much as possible provided you had a threat lead because it increased your damage! It made Bucklers a viable shield type because they'd result in more procs, and made Bulwark almost a DPS cooldown.

In 3.0 they added bonus threat to it but failed to realise that because they didnt increase the potency it's now rendered worthless. In a dps-heavy meta, the focus is much more on tanks outputting as much damage as possible. In 2.0 it would have been a great part of the kit. In 3.0 it's a dps loss to press shield swipe. It's also a threat loss per GCD to press shield swipe instead of just using Halone combos. That's ridiculous. This skill has become worthless simply due to numbers not being tweaked.

The reason it's brought up so much is because anyone should be able to see that tweaking the damage value (and maybe threat value) will fix a LOT of the issues paladins currently have. It's a three-birds-with-one-stone. Make Shield Swipe a button you want to press as much as humanly possible due to doing higher damage and you'll increase paladin threat over a pure goring/royal/royal rotation, reduce paladin TP consumption as you'll be using more 40 TP skills AND do more damage when tanking to bring the class a little closer to WAR/DRK without eclipsing them. Something like a 260 potency on the swipe would likely be enough, as the average potency of the entire goring/royal/royal rotation is 251-256 depending on skillspeed and how much the dot clips. 260 would make it always a dps boost to press.

It's by far the most flawed part of the kit, especially compared to how it was used at 50. It should NOT be ignored because making it viable has a good chance of fixing a whole host of issues with the class.

[LadyCeles]

That would make it more viable. Would be a better dps increase if made ogcd, but i would take a 260 potency on gcd. But that would be the lowest to make it worth it, 265-270 and im sold

[Xenosan]

I think a sustaining buff for Swipe would be for it to provide an enhancement buff to the next weaponskill (or to specific weaponskills used within ~5 seconds) instead of trying to tune Swipes potency to match the new average of Combo potency. Mainly because in the future when Jobs have new combos or abilities, this whole process would repeat. Swipe's value always flunctuating.

But if it buffed a following WS it'd always of equal value regardless of the what the future holds. For example, if Swipe lets the next attack ignore Tank stance Damage penalty, or guarantees the next attack to Crit, etc etc.

btw it's been a while but iirc Pacification won't stop a mob from using their telegraphs and buffs, but it does interrupt them. PVP Pacification though does prevent ability use

[eagledorf]

Have the best mitigation class be the best dps class as a tank too

I'd like you to explain how WAR's mitigation is inferior to PLDs. DRK has potential problems if they make an encounter with large physical damage (particularly smooth damage), but otherwise it's basically identical to PLD other than having a weaker Sentinel.

We've been through that bs in 2.0. No tank can be the "best mitigation" class by any measurable amount and when it actually is it's game-breaking.

On the other hand, it's just a fact that jobs that lack burst need to do more sustain DPS to make up for the fact. Almost 50% of PLD damage is in DoTs and auto-attacks so it simply needs to either burst harder (impossible unless they introduce new skills) or do much more DPS.

in the future when Jobs have new combos or abilities, this whole process would repeat

I don't know that there's a way to avoid this other than keeping future abilities similar potencies or making them off-gcd or utility skills.

For example, Royal Authority is a pure DPS finisher. If they were to introduce new higher potency skills it would also quickly fall into oblivion. They just have to go through and tweak things as they go along like they did with Aero II.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I'd like you to explain how WAR's mitigation is inferior to PLDs. DRK has potential problems if they make an encounter with large physical damage (particularly smooth damage), but otherwise it's basically identical to PLD other than having a weaker Sentinel.

We've been through that bs in 2.0. No tank can be the "best mitigation" class by any measurable amount and when it actually is it's game-breaking.

On the other hand, it's just a fact that jobs that lack burst need to do more sustain DPS to make up for the fact. Almost 50% of PLD damage is in DoTs and auto-attacks so it simply needs to either burst harder (impossible unless they introduce new skills) or do much more DPS.


I don't know that there's a way to avoid this other than keeping future abilities similar potencies or making them off-gcd or utility skills.

For example, Royal Authority is a pure DPS finisher. If they were to introduce new higher potency skills it would also quickly fall into oblivion. They just have to go through and tweak things as they go along like they did with Aero II.

Technically though, in my opinion although it might not be "more" then Paladins. Warriors do have the best mitigation in the game, because it works for everything and isn't hindered by type.

Which is how all defenses should be.

[Syzygian]

I got to the first post about someone chiding DRK because they can't figure out how to not DA Dark Dance or Dark Passenger while Blood Price is up and just stopped reading.

Or I wish I had. So pretty much what we've got here is...

Another "WAR IS LYKE OMG UHMAYZING SO WELL DEZINED, DRK IS ALL WEERD AND I DUN GET IT AND UNNNNHHH, AND STOOPID PLD JUST SUCKS, MEH!" thread. Way to get and keep some seriously sick hate on the same tired and trite rhetoric we've seen in approximately 1800 billion billion other threads.