Bard - they broke my job

[Hontaro]

all the dps can debuff their own dmg weapon type but bard (now mch too) is a bit unfair dont u think?

Excuse me, the casters want to have a word with you.

[Aiselia]

all the dps can debuff their own dmg weapon type

BLM and SMN can't. They rely on Foe's or Hypercharge.

So in other words, all of the ranged DPS rely on someone else to boost their damage.

That being said, those damage debuffs that melee can cause are factored into their balance. They're not bonuses that increase 100% of your DPS to 110% of your DPS. They're a part of each class' 100% DPS.

A MNK that isn't using Dragon Kick is not doing 100% of their damage. A DRG that isn't using Disembowel is doing a significantly lower amount of damage (because they're also not using Chaos Thrust in that case).

So basically, if you get a piercing debuff, then expect to also get a lower base damage to compensate for it because the other classes are balanced around their own kit, not balanced disregarding it.

It's the same thing with Heavy Thrust, Fists of Fire, and NIN venoms. You are 100% expected to have those up all the time to do 100% of your damage. If they didn't give those buffs and debuffs, they'd just rebalance them so that they don't need the buffs but still do the same amount.

BRD/MCH, on the other hand, have it better by being balanced around not having the piercing debuff, which means having a DRG actually IS a bonus to them.

[kazeandi]

Enochian is not a bonus, it's mandatory. Means if you lose it, your DPS drops like a rock, not only by a few percent. That makes losing it a punishing mechanic and I don't find that fun.

They could have made it a stance - raise damage, prolong cast times, or the opposite, for mobility. The fact some people like it does not mean it's a good thing. You're chained to the timer (plus AF/UI) and resource management (mana) and being a turret that ceases to do damage once you have to move. And this "ceasing to do damage" can be fatal when the timing is bad and Enochian falls off.

As for bard, I don't get what purpose the cast times are supposed to have. Kill mobility? At least give the auto attacks back, then WM is a real damage buff. Lower some proc percentages to balance it, procs don't work that well with how WM works anyways.

[RiceisNice]

Enochian is not a bonus, it's mandatory. Means if you lose it, your DPS drops like a rock, not only by a few percent. That makes losing it a punishing mechanic and I don't find that fun.


As for bard, I don't get what purpose the cast times are supposed to have. Kill mobility? At least give the auto attacks back, then WM is a real damage buff. Lower some proc percentages to balance it, procs don't work that well with how WM works anyways.

It's a bonus as much as managing DWT effectively is a bonus. It's not "punishing" (and I still feel strongly that people are using this word too loosely) you for failing it because you aren't suddenly going to do less dps for messing up enochian as opposed to not using it at all.

BRD is a whole can of different worms because WM doesn't interact with their previous skill sets (opposed to enochian which utilizes it).

BRD/MCH, on the other hand, have it better by being balanced around not having the piercing debuff, which means having a DRG actually IS a bonus to them.

Whether it's inherent or not, it's still a straight buff to their damage. That's what encourages party composition and synergy. The problem is that the current meta (getting the best setup) is a warrior, 2 melee, ranged and a caster. DRG is unique in the case that their piercing debuff is exclusive to themselves, buffs both ranged classes while competing with a melee spot with 2 others. Ranged and Casters practically go hand in hand with each other and the set up is practically guaranteed.

Outside of raid content, it just means their damage will drop a bit since it's not the ideal setup, but most of those contents are loosely tuned that it doesn't matter much in the long run unless you were speed running.

[RinchanNau]

I do not believe that BRD/MCH is balanced around not having the piercing debuff. Without it we are actually below an equally geared/skilled off tank WAR for single target DPS. BRD/MCH DPS is most certainly balanced around having a piercing debuff.

[Dante_V]

I do not believe that BRD/MCH is balanced around not having the piercing debuff. Without it we are actually below an equally geared/skilled off tank WAR for single target DPS. BRD/MCH DPS is most certainly balanced around having a piercing debuff.

Comparing war to bard is disingenuous and on top of this top end bard range for high skill players is almost 200 dps higher than top end warriors. Even without disembowel a good bard will out dps a good warrior or at least be on par with them. You are also loading the comparison in using an absolutely OP dps tank against a Utility DPS. If you were getting beat out by pallys and drks you'd maybe have a more relevant argument but considering the average output of players in this game, a good war can out dps 90% of the current dps player base.

[RiceisNice]

Comparing war to bard is disingenuous and on top of this top end bard range for high skill players is almost 200 dps higher than top end warriors. Even without disembowel a good bard will out dps a good warrior or at least be on par with them. You are also loading the comparison in using an absolutely OP dps tank against a Utility DPS. If you were getting beat out by pallys and drks you'd maybe have a more relevant argument but considering the average output of players in this game, a good war can out dps 90% of the current dps player base.

I do not believe that BRD/MCH is balanced around not having the piercing debuff. Without it we are actually below an equally geared/skilled off tank WAR for single target DPS. BRD/MCH DPS is most certainly balanced around having a piercing debuff.

None of this is really relevant to the glaring problems with bard to be honest, and it's a different can of worms ("Support tax" as some people have called it). It's also semantics at this point if we're debating whether or not disembowel/foe should be included as part of their dps (because honestly speaking, BRD doing "110%" of their damage is still less than a DRG or casters who does 100%. The numers are one thing (and for the most part, I don't really mind it, I still question the reasoning but meh), functionality is another.

[RinchanNau]

Comparing war to bard is disingenuous and on top of this top end bard range for high skill players is almost 200 dps higher than top end warriors. Even without disembowel a good bard will out dps a good warrior or at least be on par with them. You are also loading the comparison in using an absolutely OP dps tank against a Utility DPS. If you were getting beat out by pallys and drks you'd maybe have a more relevant argument but considering the average output of players in this game, a good war can out dps 90% of the current dps player base.

I said single target off tank WAR with equal gear/skill. This is not disingenuous at all. On a dummy a WAR will out DPS an equally geared BRD. It's a bit ridiculous.

This obviously can change in actual encounters where the WAR may need to use Defiance and/or disconnect a bit for mechanics. But I think the fact that WAR is already ahead in a dummy encounter is absurd. WAR is considered a tank. They, as a tank job, should not be able to out DPS an equally geared/skilled DPS.

You can argue for BRD's utility. For the increase that Foe brings to caster/healer DPS. But let us not forget how Storm's Eye will increase the other tank and NIN DPS.

[Hontaro]

That's what encourages party composition and synergy. The problem is that the current meta (getting the best setup) is a warrior, 2 melee, ranged and a caster. DRG is unique in the case that their piercing debuff is exclusive to themselves, buffs both ranged classes while competing with a melee spot with 2 others. Ranged and Casters practically go hand in hand with each other and the set up is practically guaranteed.

Why is it that Casters and Ranged go hand in hand though? BLM, for example, has very little utility, so why is the perfect DPS composition not MNK/DRG/NIN/MCH? Since MCH can buff phys. dmg, there is no need for a caster if you don't strictly need magic damage like in T11.

[Judge_Xero]

Why is it that Casters and Ranged go hand in hand though? BLM, for example, has very little utility, so why is the perfect DPS composition not MNK/DRG/NIN/MCH? Since MCH can buff phys. dmg, there is no need for a caster if you don't strictly need magic damage like in T11.

For the same reason that making a comparison solely off the single target damage of a class is wrong.
Casters and Ranged have higher multitarget and AOE potential and share synergy for that.

If class X only did 800 DPS ST damage but could pull 3000 AOE/multi target would you still take it to raid?